Pipe Dreams: Gladiators, Paladins and Dark Knights

[Onisake]

Let's get this out of the way first...

I got bored of this tank set up back when it was called World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade. I'd rather we have a roster of equally-profficient tanks instead of having to pick and choose every time. You can have interesting mechanics per tank class while still aiming for the same results and performance, believe it or not.

that won't be possible with how classes are currently. it's not that easy to change mechanics. :/ i'm not sure what sort of delusions you're having. it will take a minimum of months to do what you request. it's just not going to happen right now. we have two tanks. WAR and PLD. WAR specializes in trash mobs/AoE PLD specializes in heavy hitting big stuff.

Why would DRK ever be made into a tank? The class has historically been DPS, and is known for lesser armor scaling and greater damage potential.

i never said it would be. building it from the GLA will require it to be too defensive. because, aside from it's WSs, all of it's abilities are defensive. you cannot reliably build a DD from GLA because half of it's abilities are defensive in nature. The other half are WSs.

that's it. period. no ifs ands or buts. GLA is defensive in nature. anything spawning from it will be the same. the suggestions are made are far more viable than yours because it changes defensive abilities into offensive abilities based on the presence or absence of a shield. However I do not recommend this path. my recommendation is to build DRK from MRD.

Design-wise, what I'm aiming for is the drain theme of DRK without going to the silly extremes FFXI's DRK went to. Enmity spikes from abilities was a bad attempt at a check/balance on DRK's higher damage potential. Notice I also suggested two ways for it to sacrifice HP (Dark Slash which is comboable and Last Resort, which is the 15-minute ability) and two ways for it to recover HP between Bloodbath and Vampiric Blade (though yes, you'd have to get creative to proc Vampiric Blade but that is the intent of the design).

I wouldn't allow a G.Sword GLA or DRK access to some of the defensive abilities. This is why I suggested splitting Aegis Boon into Defensive Focus (guaranteed block if equipping a shield, guaranteed graze if using a great sword) and having Aegis Boon be a job trait for PLD. I wouldn't want DRK getting Shield Bash, Wardrum or Phalanx. That's why I suggested more focus on spell interruption (between the G.Sword bonus to Flat Blade and the DRK ability Asphyxiate).

so to make a DD class you want to make it half your abilities do absolutely nothing for you. all of it's offense now comes from sub class abilities and it's drain abilities. brilliant plan.

why build it from GLA at all? why not MRD? every defensive ability from MRD allows you to use a 2handed weapon. and MRD has a lot of offensive abilities that will benefit DRK.

please enlighten me as to why GLA makes more sense for DRK than MRD.

Rampart and Sentinel are tricky because they're technically survivability. I'd cap Sentinel and Rampart to maybe 20% potency baseline, and then have shield block rating/value be something of a multiplier to allow it to reach full potential. Given that I suggested DRK getting a graze mechanic to help it mitigate some damage (thus taking one step against things like "don't use melee because they die to AoE" or "this class is a pain to heal because they constantly take damage"), I would rather just have both abilities require a shield to use.

you missed the main point of my post. GLA has nothing for DDs. nothing. at all. none of its abilities are good for a pure DD class. DRK is a pure DD class. without a major change to it's abilities then you will not be able to reliably build a DD class from GLA.

What actually makes sense:

build DRK from MRD.

What does not make sense:

Make a new mechanic for only one class to compensate for a lack of offensive abilities. (IE: graze)

what you're proposing is essentially a combination of parry and block. why in the world would we not just make it parry?

contrary to your belief, introducing this would make DRK a tank.

why? because then you can parry AND graze. a GLA with foresight now has more defensive abilities than PLD, because you cannot parry with a shield. and because you have access to sentinel and damage=hate.

so no. just no. it's not a good idea. but it is a valiant effort.

I was mostly just referring to the w/shield, w/o shield skills. It's definately possible to equip, or unequip any sort of gear during battle. You just can't change class.


Unequip Shield


Equip Shield

Have a MNK Shoulder Tackle (Stun)

Riot Blade (Stack more Defense Down)

i wasn't aware you could change armor/rings/shields while in combat. I was near positive you could not. I don't really see the merit in this. if you're tanking you want your shield up at all times. if you're DDing shield does nothing for you, and you'd have to DD with a 1 handed sword instead of the proposed Gswd. you'd be gimping damage potential for a slight increase in utility. it doesn't make a lot of sense to me unless your'e solo. in which case who cares? PvP maybe but:

Either way this was not my actual recomendation, it was just tossing ideas that would be feasible if DRK built from GLA.

I still think it should build from MRD.

MRD => WAR = tank
MRD => DRK = DD

GLA => PLD = tank
GLA => RDM = Support/utility.

These kinds of paths make sense within the realm of current skill sets.

[Duelle]

that won't be possible with how classes are currently. it's not that easy to change mechanics. :/ i'm not sure what sort of delusions you're having. it will take a minimum of months to do what you request. it's just not going to happen right now. we have two tanks. WAR and PLD. WAR specializes in trash mobs/AoE PLD specializes in heavy hitting big stuff.

Hopefully the devs don't think like you, otherwise this is going to turn into a bigger mess than FFXI or WoW during TBC. It's not that difficult to do.

i never said it would be. building it from the GLA will require it to be too defensive. because, aside from it's WSs, all of it's abilities are defensive. you cannot reliably build a DD from GLA because half of it's abilities are defensive in nature. The other half are WSs.

The only reason GLA was changed to being defensive was because it would be a waste of resources to make the class hybrid or middle of the road and give it no option outside of tanking. This is between the limited changes they could bring us as well as limitations of the game engine and their restrictive design in 1.0.

so to make a DD class you want to make it half your abilities do absolutely nothing for you. all of it's offense now comes from sub class abilities and it's drain abilities. brilliant plan.

That's what we call synergy between the job and its classes/subclasses. It's not a far shot from specializations, which I am rather fond of. You can make a class with a slew of abilities and some abilities become better either through bonus scaling or role emphasis from traits once you go into a job. It's why I took the other two improved defense traits from GLA and turned them into Armor Mastery for PLD. Likewise, I grabbed the two potential improved attack traits and turned them into Great Sword Mastery for DRK. A GLA baseline would have one defensive trait, one offensive trait, and gain more depending on the job they choose.

Due to the changes in design, GLA at the most would provide some utility, some survivability for DRK along with its bread and butter weapon skills (as DPS they'd have more chances to use Goring Blade and Riot Blade, and those would do more damage as DRK would be using them with a great sword). Assuming MRD enters the picture as a subclass, it could then provide Bloodbath. LNC would provide Blood for Blood and Invigorate. Mind you, that's with the limited number of abilities we have. We won't know how much else the devs will be adding to the game in terms of abilities and what they will be opening up for cross-classing.

without a major change to it's abilities then you will not be able to reliably build a DD class from GLA.

Indeed, and that's kind of the point of the OP.

Make a new mechanic for only one class to compensate for a lack of offensive abilities. (IE: graze)

what you're proposing is essentially a combination of parry and block. why in the world would we not just make it parry?

contrary to your belief, introducing this would make DRK a tank.

why? because then you can parry AND graze. a GLA with foresight now has more defensive abilities than PLD, because you cannot parry with a shield. and because you have access to sentinel and damage=hate.

I can concede to this, except that my intention was to keep parry on MRD and out of GLA regardless of whether they're using a sword or great sword. Having both share parry in some capacity would be messy unless you somehow change parries so that DRK at most gets partial parries (and even then, mitigate a lot less damage than a MRD/WAR would) while full parries can only be done by MRD. Or having MRD/WAR parry values and ratings scale with STR and not scale at all for G.Sword GLA or DRK.

At least to me, it's simpler to just remove parry from the table and give DRK a mitigation mechanic that is there only for self-preservation. Unless you feel the drains are enough, which I'm willing to concider.

As for Sentinel/Rampart, there's an easy fix to that: make them require a shield to use. No shield, no access. Or again, if Sentinel were 20% damage reduction, make it 5% damage reduction when using a two-handed sword.

Keep in mind that DRK would not have Flash (moved to PLD), Aegis Boon, Wardrum, the enmity modifier on flat blade, full-strength Rampart and full-strength Sentinel (or simply no access to either ability). It would have inferior armor scaling, less mitigation gains from VIT, Foresight from MRD and Provoke from MRD. A DRK would not want to get hit, nor would they have the toolkit needed to actually be a tank. Graze's might mitigate some damage from physical AoEs, but they're not going to make up for all the other things you're missing.

GLA => RDM = Support/utility.

The better alternative.

[Onisake]

Hopefully the devs don't think like you, otherwise this is going to turn into a bigger mess than FFXI or WoW during TBC. It's not that difficult to do.

You're not thinking in the full business sense. opportunity cost is huge. and it's a lot more difficult than you think. are you a programmer? are you a game tester/quality expert? keep in mind it has to go through feasbility => closed alpha => revision => closed beta => testing => release. if you think that's 'not that difficult' you're wrong. it's not something you can spit out in a couple of days. months of work and half a dozen people. minimum.

it's not just about technical capability. it's the whole spectrum of balance. PvP is coming too, which introduces a completely new realm of balances.

The only reason GLA was changed to being defensive was because it would be a waste of resources to make the class hybrid or middle of the road and give it no option outside of tanking. This is between the limited changes they could bring us as well as limitations of the game engine and their restrictive design in 1.0.

don't buy it. i believe it was always meant to be defensive. it has some hybrid potential, but every class has that so it's a moot point.

That's what we call synergy between the job and its classes/subclasses. It's not a far shot from specializations, which I am rather fond of. You can make a class with a slew of abilities and some abilities become better either through bonus scaling or role emphasis from traits once you go into a job. It's why I took the other two improved defense traits from GLA and turned them into Armor Mastery for PLD. Likewise, I grabbed the two potential improved attack traits and turned them into Great Sword Mastery for DRK. A GLA baseline would have one defensive trait, one offensive trait, and gain more depending on the job they choose.

wait. so you think that having half of your skills be absolutely useless to you is synergy?

. . ./thread

Due to the changes in design, GLA at the most would provide some utility, some survivability for DRK along with its bread and butter weapon skills (as DPS they'd have more chances to use Goring Blade and Riot Blade, and those would do more damage as DRK would be using them with a great sword). Assuming MRD enters the picture as a subclass, it could then provide Bloodbath. LNC would provide Blood for Blood and Invigorate. Mind you, that's with the limited number of abilities we have. We won't know how much else the devs will be adding to the game in terms of abilities and what they will be opening up for cross-classing.

GLA main with LNC/MRD subclass is what you're tentatively proposing.

I still think MRD main with LNC/PUG sub class is far superior and fits with DRK lore more. PUG gives it a mix of survivibility and offense (blindside, SW, featherfoot) and LNC gives it more offensive (BfB, Invigorate). not to mention MRD gives it a good mix of defensive (foresight, bloodbath, rampage) and offensive (berserk, enduring march)

Indeed, and that's kind of the point of the OP.

you're not changing anything. you're barely tweaking. and half the skills are still useless for a DD class. it doesn't make sense. your proposal will make DRK the weakest DD, BRD will do gain more damage from its main class than DRK will.

you either need to change defensive shield abilities to offensive ones that do not require a shield or build from a different class.

I can concede to this, except that my intention was to keep parry on MRD and out of GLA regardless of whether they're using a sword or great sword. Having both share parry in some capacity would be messy unless you somehow change parries so that DRK at most gets partial parries (and even then, mitigate a lot less damage than a MRD/WAR would) while full parries can only be done by MRD. Or having MRD/WAR parry values and ratings scale with STR and not scale at all for G.Sword GLA or DRK.

why? it's a mechanic that already exists. why do we need to create a new mechanic? use what's already exisiting. why do double work when you have something already that works perfectly fine? why does drk need to partial parry? is there something wrong with full parry? is there a reason this can't be accomplish with giving them lower base parry rate?

At least to me, it's simpler to just remove parry from the table and give DRK a mitigation mechanic that is there only for self-preservation. Unless you feel the drains are enough, which I'm willing to concider.

again, why? why can't we use existing mechanics that already have been balanced? this is a validation/quality/feasibility thing. you're not thinking in a business sense here. it just doesn't make sense to introduce more work to the dev team right now, or in the near future.

As for Sentinel/Rampart, there's an easy fix to that: make them require a shield to use. No shield, no access. Or again, if Sentinel were 20% damage reduction, make it 5% damage reduction when using a two-handed sword.

again. why do we want to remove base class abilities from the roster? this makes absolutely no sense. you're gimping yourself by removing the total number of actions from the class. essentially DRK would have WSs from GLA. all other abilities would be from it's own quested abilities and it's sub class abilities. you're gimping DRK and making it useless until level 50 where you have access to 5 subclass abilities. bad idea. very very bad idea. i don't understand why you can't grasp this.

a level 30 drk, with your proposal has:

1 Fast Blade

2 Rampart

4 Phalanx

6 Defensive Focus: Guarantees one shield block if equipping a shield, or one graze if equipping a great sword. Defensive ability, not useful unless you pull hate

10 Savage Blade

14 Spinning Slash: Swing your weapon fiercely, dealing damage to nearby targets.

18 Shield Bash

22 Outmaneuver: Slightly increases block rate when equipping a shield. Slightly increases chance of grazing when equipping a great sword. Defensive ability, not useful unless you pull hate

26 Flat Blade

30 Riot Blade

8 Enhanced Physical Defense does not increase damage potential

12 Enhanced Rampart

16 Enhanced Physical Attack Power ONLY thing that increases damage potential. also available to PLD...lol

20 Swift Defensive Focus: Reduces recast of Defensive Focus by 15 seconds. Defensive, does not increase damage potential

24 Sword & Board: Occasionally attack with your shield.

28 Enhanced Flat Blade: when using a great sword, Flat Blade can interrupt spellcasting. Defensive ability, can increase damage potential only be allowing to attack from side/behind more easily when soloing

and 3 sub class abilities.
if lnc/mrd are available: Invigorate, BfB, and Bloodbath/Feint are your most useful. BfB is the only way you have to increase your damage potential aside from your level 30 job ability.

Now compare this to MNK and DRG at level 30. Yeah...I'd never play DRK. it would be an absolute nightmare to play unless played as a tank. Can you now see why my counter proposal is more viable?

Keep in mind that DRK would not have Flash (moved to PLD), Aegis Boon, Wardrum, the enmity modifier on flat blade, full-strength Rampart and full-strength Sentinel (or simply no access to either ability). It would have inferior armor scaling, less mitigation gains from VIT, Foresight from MRD and Provoke from MRD. A DRK would not want to get hit, nor would they have the toolkit needed to actually be a tank. Graze's might mitigate some damage from physical AoEs, but they're not going to make up for all the other things you're missing.

and be the worst DD class AFTER BRD with absolutely less than half the utility.

The better alternative.

was an example. i was trying to make the point that it woudl make more sense to build a utility/support class from GLA than a DD class.

[Duelle]

months of work and half a dozen people. minimum.

You mean like what they most likely have been doing up until now? I doubt the 2.0 battle mechanics team sat around while the sound, art and animation teams worked their asses off to bring us those trailers. I like to think they've been hard at work to bring about whatever system they feel would best allow the multiple jobs to exist in-game.

don't buy it. i believe it was always meant to be defensive. it has some hybrid potential, but every class has that so it's a moot point.

You now sound like the crew that constantly asks why we have such "little" content and not 14 dungeons to support the level climb from 1-50 with varied loot and boss mechanics. The short answer is that it's stuff that's there to hold us over because the real game is coming when 2.0 launches. That they diluted GLA down to the bare bones to fit the tank role easily fits this MO because for a temporary/placeholder system like 1.0's, it's easier to balance and design a one-trick pony. It's cheaper, too.

wait. so you think that having half of your skills be absolutely useless to you is synergy?

So it's written in stone that every class has to use every ability it ever learns all the time in all situations? News to me.

It's standard design for branching classes. You didn't see lv75 Shillien Knights using the dinky dagger strike they learned at lv18 because their skills are all sword and shield stuff. You didn't see lv80 Arms Warriors complaining about not being able to use Shield Wall or Shield Bash because his gameplay was entirely built around two-handers and abilities that involve two-handers. I'm applying that same principle in my suggestion.

why do we want to remove base class abilities from the roster?

Because this is how branching class design generally works. Once you start narrowing down on what your role is, certain abilities are better-used than others. I still don't get why DRK missing out on shield-based, tank-oriented abilities is the end of the world. Mind you, I never dismissed the possibility of more abilities per class being added once 2.0 hits.

All in all, it's true that we don't know what approach Yoshida and his team are going to take to make classes branch into jobs (or if they'll give up on the armoury system and just use jobs instead), just like we don't know whether it'll really be GLA that spawns DRK. Maybe someone should ask him the next time they can catch him in an interview and see if he has anything to share on the matter.

[Onisake]

You mean like what they most likely have been doing up until now? I doubt the 2.0 battle mechanics team sat around while the sound, art and animation teams worked their asses off to bring us those trailers. I like to think they've been hard at work to bring about whatever system they feel would best allow the multiple jobs to exist in-game.

I assume they were working on the new mage class. which is sorely needed. no-one knows for sure what they've been working on.

And furthermore the damage formulas need a lot more work than class abilities right now. as that's really the root of most of our problems.

I'm sure they are doing exactly what you say: setting groundwork to allow multiple jobs to exist. HOWEVER what you have proposed does not improve the flow of transitioning GLA into a DD class. period.

You now sound like the crew that constantly asks why we have such "little" content and not 14 dungeons to support the level climb from 1-50 with varied loot and boss mechanics. The short answer is that it's stuff that's there to hold us over because the real game is coming when 2.0 launches. That they diluted GLA down to the bare bones to fit the tank role easily fits this MO because for a temporary/placeholder system like 1.0's, it's easier to balance and design a one-trick pony. It's cheaper, too.

I know why we have so little content. everything now is just to hold us over.

i don't know how you got what you said from what I said...but..alright then.

i dont' think you know/remember what GLA used to be. it's GREATLY improved from it's original state. they didn't dilute it at all. if anything they allowed it to concentrate and turn it into a worthwhile class.

and if you want a one-trick-pony talk to BLM.

So it's written in stone that every class has to use every ability it ever learns all the time in all situations? News to me.

losing one or two abilities is one thing. Losing 5+ is another. you obsolete 5 abilities for your proposed drk at level 30 it's much worse at level 50. i still cannot understand why you insist this is a good idea. you refuse to explain it. i'm close to just not replying to this thread anymore. Please, get over yourself. it's not a good idea.

It's standard design for branching classes. You didn't see lv75 Shillien Knights using the dinky dagger strike they learned at lv18 because their skills are all sword and shield stuff. You didn't see lv80 Arms Warriors complaining about not being able to use Shield Wall or Shield Bash because his gameplay was entirely built around two-handers and abilities that involve two-handers. I'm applying that same principle in my suggestion.

They are wanting to get away from this. they want all of your abilities to carry some meaning. It's like in FFXI where you had a bunch of WS that were totally useless.

again, i cannot understand why you think this is a good idea. this is the whole reason they have fire scale as you level. so you're not just spamming the highest level tier spell available.

Because this is how branching class design generally works. Once you start narrowing down on what your role is, certain abilities are better-used than others. I still don't get why DRK missing out on shield-based, tank-oriented abilities is the end of the world. Mind you, I never dismissed the possibility of more abilities per class being added once 2.0 hits.

this is not done by obsoleting over half of your available abilities. branching builds off of existing framework. it doesn't slash and burn half of that frame work. the class acts as a foundation. if half of your foundation is rotten, it's a poor foundation. there's no way around that.

I want you to really, really look at your proposal and think about how the job would work.

At level 50

Usable abilities that increase damage output:

Fast Blade

2 Rampart

4 Phalanx

6 Defensive Focus: Guarantees one shield block if equipping a shield, or one graze if equipping a great sword.

10 Savage Blade

14 Spinning Slash: Swing your weapon fiercely, dealing damage to nearby targets.

18 Shield Bash

22 Outmaneuver: Slightly increases block rate when equipping a shield. Slightly increases chance of grazing when equipping a great sword.

26 Flat Blade

30 Riot Blade

34 Sentinel: Moved down.

38 War Drum

42 Tempered Will

46 Rage of Halone

50 Goring Blade

30 Dark Slash: Sacrifice HP to attack your opponent with a heavy slash, dealing physical damage and additional dark damage.

35 Umbral Symbiosis: Lowers target's Attack and Magic Attack by 3% and increases your Attack and Magic Attack by 3%. Costs 200 MP.

40 Night Slash: Drains TP from up to three targets in front of you. 400 MP cost. 20 second cooldown.

45 Asphyxiate: Interrupts spell-casting. 20-yalm range. 3 minute cooldown.

50 Last Resort: Your next three weapon skills consume HP in addition to their normal costs for additional darkness damage.

Ok. Now that we have that done. Now lets see what abilities are available that do not require TP.

At level 50

Fast Blade

10 Savage Blade

14 Spinning Slash: Swing your weapon fiercely, dealing damage to nearby targets.

26 Flat Blade

30 Riot Blade

46 Rage of Halone

50 Goring Blade

30 Dark Slash: Sacrifice HP to attack your opponent with a heavy slash, dealing physical damage and additional dark damage.

35 Umbral Symbiosis: Lowers target's Attack and Magic Attack by 3% and increases your Attack and Magic Attack by 3%. Costs 200 MP.

40 Night Slash: Drains TP from up to three targets in front of you. 400 MP cost. 20 second cooldown.

50 Last Resort: Your next three weapon skills consume HP in addition to their normal costs for additional darkness damage.

Oh good. we have 3 abilities. Oh, what's this. attack increase by a whole 3%!? OH LAWDY someone get me my fainting boots! Yeah... I'll take a forced crit blind side=>howling fist over that any day.

Let us compare to MNK at 50.

Abilities that increase damage potential but do not require TP
1 Pummel Damage
2 Featherfoot
4 Pounce
6 Second Wind
10 Concussive Blow
14 Blindside (can crit shoulder tackle, obviously better to use with TP)
18 Haymaker
22 Fists of Earth
26 Sucker Punch
30 Demolish
34 Fists of Fire
38 Aura Pulse
42 Taunt
46 Howling Fist
50 Simian Thrash
30 Shoulder Tackle
35 Spinning Heel
40 Fists of Wind
45 Dragon Kick
50 Hundred Fists

6 abilities. 6 TWICE what your DRK has. and this is without counting blindside.

So...why would I ever want to play your DRK? someone? anyone? explain?

All in all, it's true that we don't know what approach Yoshida and his team are going to take to make classes branch into jobs (or if they'll give up on the armoury system and just use jobs instead), just like we don't know whether it'll really be GLA that spawns DRK. Maybe someone should ask him the next time they can catch him in an interview and see if he has anything to share on the matter.

you're right. we dont' know. But i can promise you it wont' be to remove half of a classes abilities from their available roster.

[Duelle]

And furthermore the damage formulas need a lot more work than class abilities right now. as that's really the root of most of our problems.

I'm sure they are doing exactly what you say: setting groundwork to allow multiple jobs to exist. HOWEVER what you have proposed does not improve the flow of transitioning GLA into a DD class. period.

Fair enough. You disagree with the OP.

i dont' think you know/remember what GLA used to be. it's GREATLY improved from it's original state. they didn't dilute it at all. if anything they allowed it to concentrate and turn it into a worthwhile class.

I was here when the game launched. GLA at the time, despite stat scaling, was designed to be attack oriented because the shield/defense abilities you got from a equipping a shield (which levelled separately from your sword). They removed a whole bunch of GLA attacks and combined Sword with Shield to create the current version of GLA. Offensively the class got watered down between accomodating the shield skills and the ability limit the developers placed on all classes/jobs. Here's the thing I neglected to mention in the last post: GLA's current design butts heads with the intent of having jobs be the role-focused gameplay option for players. People have complained about this since jobs were implemented. If jobs are going to represent your role in a party, then classes have to be more "general" to allow multiple jobs to sprout from the classes and not create redundancy between class and job. I'm actually hoping someone talks to Yoshida about this at gamescon in an interview just to get this question out of the way.

losing one or two abilities is one thing. Losing 5+ is another. you obsolete 5 abilities for your proposed drk at level 30 it's much worse at level 50.

5 abilities that have nothing to do with damage dealing and have all to do with tanking. On that note, I took your words to heart from two posts ago and was thinking of making an exception on Rampart, but it would need a rename. Rename it to Rally and change the defense buff granted to the party to your suggested attack buff when equipping a Great Sword.

i'm close to just not replying to this thread anymore.

You don't have to reply to my thread. No one's holding a gun to your head and ordering you to read my posts.

They are wanting to get away from this. they want all of your abilities to carry some meaning. It's like in FFXI where you had a bunch of WS that were totally useless.

Apples and oranges. FFXI was subject to clutter that was useless in all situations and had no part in role flexibility. That goes for spells on certain jobs, a crapton of bard songs as well as weapon skills. People didn't use daggers on a WAR because the WAR had much higher skill ratings on axe and great axe. SAMs had no sword option because their G.Katana skill was much higher than anything else. Likewise, DRK had wastes of space in elemental spells because despite their decent rating their job model did not support it between low MP and spells not scaling with any of their primary stats.

By the way, the reason so many WS were useless in FFXI was largely because it was not easy to pump damage up with stats the way others were. Even then, the WS that scales best or had the most hits won. Hence why Guillotine trumped Spiral Hell and Cross Reaper well into TAU until they nerfed its accuracy.

this is not done by obsoleting over half of your available abilities. branching builds off of existing framework. it doesn't slash and burn half of that frame work.

There's a difference between the current foundation and having to revampt the foundation to support additional jobs branching from it. Why you'd think GLA should stay as is is beyond me, because in its current incarnation it cannot support another job aside from PLD branching from it.

Do note that I'm playing within the ability limit currently in place. I could add abilities. A whole lot. But that's wasted time because we don't know how the devs will approach this.

Oh good. we have 3 abilities. Oh, what's this. attack increase by a whole 3%!? OH LAWDY someone get me my fainting boots! Yeah... I'll take a forced crit blind side=>howling fist over that any day.

Because my suggested numbers are absolute and written in stone...oh wait, they aren't. I like starting with low numbers so that if it needs to be buffed it can be without someone coming in from the sidelines saying it might be OP. I originally thought 10% would be a good place to start, and can change the suggested number back to that. Also note it lowers mob damage output by the same amount, and if it were up to me it would be a guaranteed effect.

I'd rather some epic weaponskill instead of Last Resort.

I would too, but I'm trying to think along the lines of how the developers think. Not to mention a WS on a 15-minute timer just seems lame to me. Blood Weapon was terrible outside of Kraken Club zergs, so I'd rather not see that again, either.

[Onisake]

I was here when the game launched. GLA at the time, despite stat scaling, was designed to be attack oriented because the shield/defense abilities you got from a equipping a shield (which levelled separately from your sword). They removed a whole bunch of GLA attacks and combined Sword with Shield to create the current version of GLA. Offensively the class got watered down between accomodating the shield skills and the ability limit the developers placed on all classes/jobs. Here's the thing I neglected to mention in the last post: GLA's current design butts heads with the intent of having jobs be the role-focused gameplay option for players. People have complained about this since jobs were implemented. If jobs are going to represent your role in a party, then classes have to be more "general" to allow multiple jobs to sprout from the classes and not create redundancy between class and job. I'm actually hoping someone talks to Yoshida about this at gamescon in an interview just to get this question out of the way.

There were very specific reasons. classes gain more flexibility through greater access to sub job abilities. GLA can hold hate far better than PLD due to access to a wider range of hate abilities (taunt from pug, second wind, etc.) and having access to most of the same abilities that pld uses.

at level 50, you have 10 other abilities in addition to your class abilities.

when you switch to a job, you gain 5 new abilities in addition to your class abilities. these new abilities help you refine towards a certain role. you can also chose from 5 other class abilities not tied to the class you have equipped. in addition those 5 abilities are restricted to certain sub classes.

while in class form, those 5 unique abilities are instead traded for existing abilities available to other classes. so you have access to 10 abilities existing on other classes. there is no restriction on what other classes' abilities you can equip.

5 abilities that have nothing to do with damage dealing and have all to do with tanking. On that note, I took your words to heart from two posts ago and was thinking of making an exception on Rampart, but it would need a rename. Rename it to Rally and change the defense buff granted to the party to your suggested attack buff when equipping a Great Sword.

5 abilities that could have a dual purpose if reworked. if you want to build a DD class from GLA things must change. otherwise the class will not be able to compete. you agreed that this was the case. but instead of proposing a valid rework, you just want to obsolete abilities instead. I'm pointing out this is a bad idea. it will not work.

the job abilities would have to be blatantly overpowered to compensate for a lack of usable class abilities. this is poor design.

You don't have to reply to my thread. No one's holding a gun to your head and ordering you to read my posts.

I don't. but I like discussion. some of your comments are not discussion. I asked repeatedly for rational behind decisions so i could better understand your viewpoint. when you dont' provide this there is no longer a discussion. it's just bickering.

I also love design. when i see a bad design my OCD kicks in and I want to fix it. this is overruled when the other designer refuses critique and it becomes clear that their decisions are pre-rational thought. IE: no amount of reason will persuade them otherwise. so there's no longer a point to discussion.

you can't always just do things for other people. you have to let them fail sometimes and learn from their mistakes. once it gets to that point i just walk away.

Apples and oranges. FFXI was subject to clutter that was useless in all situations and had no part in role flexibility. That goes for spells on certain jobs, a crapton of bard songs as well as weapon skills. People didn't use daggers on a WAR because the WAR had much higher skill ratings on axe and great axe. SAMs had no sword option because their G.Katana skill was much higher than anything else. Likewise, DRK had wastes of space in elemental spells because despite their decent rating their job model did not support it between low MP and spells not scaling with any of their primary stats.

You can bring up WoW but i can't bring up FFXI? that doesn't make sense. WoW was a copy of the korean grinder. they copied many of the concepts, the difference was they listened to their player base and refined it and made it wonderful. at least for a while.

The problem was they continued to listen to the player base, and the game turned to crap.

it is/was the industry standard for MMO. it was hugely successful for many reason.

By the way, the reason so many WS were useless in FFXI was largely because it was not easy to pump damage up with stats the way others were. Even then, the WS that scales best or had the most hits won. Hence why Guillotine trumped Spiral Hell and Cross Reaper well into TAU until they nerfed its accuracy.

The original accuracy of the formula was based on the original accuracy of 2h weapons. they buffed the accuracy on 2h, but did not adjust (or adjust enough) the formula to compensate. as such the accuracy was too high for this ability. War and SAM did not have as many hit in their multi hit skills, so these did not need adjusted. IE: it needed done. it wasn't to compensate and make the single hits better. it wasn't to nerf the job. it was just the multi hit was better than intended.

There's a difference between the current foundation and having to revampt the foundation to support additional jobs branching from it. Why you'd think GLA should stay as is is beyond me, because in its current incarnation it cannot support another job aside from PLD branching from it.

There are 3 roles that one can fulfill in a multiplayer game. DD, Tank, Support.

GLA is fine as it is because it can branch into either Tank or Support. it does not need the DD option. My arguement is that a DD class should not stem from GLA. A support class such as RDM, BLU, GEO, etc. could easily spawn from GLA and take advantage of it's natural defensive abilities and have no need to 'obsolete' or remove them from the roster. a support class would be capable of using these abilities in a unique way. such as RDM having an ability that applies a self buff to an ally. (allows a PLD to double stack aegis boon, or give it to a blm that just pulled hate)

these are examples that could work. i don't think it's the best direction of the class per se, but it is an option.

Do note that I'm playing within the ability limit currently in place. I could add abilities. A whole lot. But that's wasted time because we don't know how the devs will approach this.

Which is where the flaw lies. you cannot make a competitive DD class from GLA with its current ability set. you would need to change it's abilities. there is no way around this.

Because my suggested numbers are absolute and written in stone...oh wait, they aren't. I like starting with low numbers so that if it needs to be buffed it can be without someone coming in from the sidelines saying it might be OP. I originally thought 10% would be a good place to start, and can change the suggested number back to that. Also note it lowers mob damage output by the same amount, and if it were up to me it would be a guaranteed effect.

the value would not matter so much as the duration and CDs of the other abilities with your proposal. many of the abilities would need to be broken to compensate for the jobs lack of class abilities. this is the only skill that really increases DRKs potential damage with WSs. all other abilities just help increase the frequency or are direct damage.

IE: this ability would need to be a toggle and be active all the time to help DRK generate damage from AAs to compensate for it's lack of ability damage.

I would too, but I'm trying to think along the lines of how the developers think. Not to mention a WS on a 15-minute timer just seems lame to me. Blood Weapon was terrible outside of Kraken Club zergs, so I'd rather not see that again, either.

I see nothing in your proposal that would make sense to a developer. IE: you're not thinking like a developer. you're thinking about what you want. there is a very big difference here. As an engineer I know for a fact that sometimes what I want is not whats best for the project. so i have to swallow my pride and do my job.

you're introducing a new mechanic that overlaps an existing mechanic: partial parry. there is no need for t his to exist. parry works fine as it is. just adjust the frequency. the same thing gets accomplished. this was mistake number one.

removing nearly all utility abilities from a class for a given job: defensive abilities tied to shield, job can't use shield. this was the biggest mistake. it's an even bigger mistake that you don't want to back down from it.

you make some valid points, HOWEVER, the execution of those points is too slash-and-burn. you cannot build a DD class from GLA as it is. it will not be able to compete. you woudl need to add an ability that changes the nature of these abilities. and then you're 'wasting' one of the job abilities that it could have had if it built from a more suitable class.

when you're introducing a new job/class, you want to figure out how 'fun' it will be to play. this, realistically, can be quantified by how active the class/job is and the risk/reward ratio plays out. the bigger the rewards, the more 'fun' it can be to play. however if the job is too safe, a player will not feel challenged and become bored. Skill can come into play for adjusting risk/reward. but in all reality you want this to be as close to 1 as possible. IE: if you must take high risks, you should get high rewards.