Why the +/- Enmity stat needs to be abolished

[Onisake]

Customization is nice, but not when it messes with stat priorities and item budgets. It was pointless in FFXI and it certainly is pointless here.

Stat priorities in FFXI were FAR simpler. every DD class was STR/DEX/ATT that was it

PLD and NIN were the go-to tanks. PLD more so after the utsusemi nerf. and the fact that ninja had few hate tools compared to PLD.

+enmity on FFXI PLD was BEASTLY. I personally ran +enmity and self cured for the majority of my hate generation. because you could shield block while casting, and I was only about 5 points away from maximum obtainable shield skill this worked wonders for me. curing others played a very important role in raids, especially when back-up tanking or crowd-control. I could cure the sleepers, pop sentinel when they woke up and prevent the BLMs from getting WTFpwned.

I could do the same when curing a main tank. get on the htae list and slowly build my hate for in case he died. i could then pop a few abilities and take over. i knew how to ride the hate line in FFXI, which is not something a lot of tanks (especially back-ups) did. there is a time and place to lose hate on purpose.

so no. it was not pointless in FFXI. i wonder if we played the same game. when you say oyu want to remove stat budgets the way you're saying it, all I see is 'I'm lazy. dumb it down for me'

They are when we essentially have the same class. XIV basically took the prot warrior and tried to hammer it into the mold known as the FFXI PLD, while undoing a bunch of the improvements that spec received over the years. Phalanx's utter lack of anything other than being a set up for spirits within makes this evident (the template originally had a huge enmity modifier that was eventually nerfed and replaced with a high damage modifier instead).

they are different games. different mechanics. talking about them does not improve the level of discussion about enmity in FFXIV. I'm not getting into this. it is irrelevant. WoW and FFXI are fundamentally different than 14. do not bring them to this discussion.

Damage=hate. if you do no damage, the multiplier does nothing.

if you are below stat caps and tanking in FFXIV, you need to work on hitting stat caps. the multipliers are not significant enough to warrant focusing on that before focusing on damage.

once you hit stat caps, adding enmity does more for hate generation than adding more primary stats. this is assuming you can connect. IE: accuracy > enmity as a hate tool.

if you are wasting time budgeting enmity, it's because you're at STR/MND and ACC cap already. and even then, it's far better to improve VIT/DEF and HP.

If you're worried about +enmity before you're at stat caps, you're doing it wrong. if you're above stat caps, it's your decision to worry about it.

I'm not talking about just combos. I'm talking about everything the PLD does. It should have a built-in enmity modifier that increases enmity generated by every action the PLD takes.

Irrelevent and not needed. currently PLD can generate suffecient enmity without needing a ton of +enmity gear. i've seen stat caped plds with nothing but maybe +30 enmity. i've seen a lot of bad PLDs with 60+ enmity not being able to do crap because they can't connect, and don't cure themselves. essentialy the only place on PLD you should put enmity are slots where ou can't get primary stats you need in a significant quantity. belt, earring, etc.

we don't need boosters to our current actions, we need more actions to do period.

arguable WAR is the only tank that would realy benefit from increased modifiers to enmity as it is more reliant on damage than abilities. it recieves a more 'steady' stream of hate generation, so the extra oomph is needed. PLD can rely more on bursts of hate.

As I've constantly said, the tank has other things to worry about than curing others. Not to mention it would make it even more of a pain to balance the job. If you really want to have some cure that affects others, I'd change Holy Succor into a smart heal if cast on self:

Holy Succor: Restores HP. If cast on self, heals the party member with the lowest HP for half of the amount you recover.

This way you supplement the healer rather than do part of their job. You also have the option of using it on yourself and patch up someone else in the group or using it on someone else.

Translation: I'm lazy

I'd rather not have to put so much into a stat to begin with. Not to mention it messes with gear item budgets, which I notice not many realize just how wasted stats affect gear design.

What I was getting at is more inherent percentage modifiers to every action you take.

if it's useful its not a wasted stat. if i have a corvette car and i spend 50 a week on gas. I'm not wasting my money on gas. I need it to run my car

If I have a prius and i'm spending 50 a month on gas, i'm still not wasting money on gas.

The prius is more effecient, and there is an opportunity cost associated between the decision to drive a corvette over a prius.

both are viable alternatives. which one i choose to drive is up to me. both do their jobs and do them well. the ultimate decision is how effeciently do I want to complete the task of getting from point A to point B.

In other words a tank has the option of spending a ton of money on enmity and 'using more gas' on trying to do lots of actions quickly to build up hate. (this is because damage/healing=hate)

Or they can hit stat caps. and make a few actions worth a lot more hate. their combos hit harder and their heals heal more.

Giving DPS enmity drop abilities would be a good place to start, IMO.

most DD classes have this available to them. either through something they have natively or through chameleon.

[Duelle]

Stat priorities in FFXI were FAR simpler. every DD class was STR/DEX/ATT that was it

False. The reason sushi was so popular was because you needed the accuracy percentage boost to reach hit cap. Prior to sushi accuracy on gear was and even now continues to be expensive. Your e-peen stacked STR for WS and Attack for white hits meant nothing if your accuracy was crap, especially so in the hopefully never-to-return days of overhunting where you needed those high values to beat out level correction.

so no. it was not pointless in FFXI. i wonder if we played the same game. when you say oyu want to remove stat budgets the way you're saying it, all I see is 'I'm lazy. dumb it down for me'

You do know this all was possible only through abusing gear swaps, right? Something that we can't and hopefully will never be able to do here. Attempting to accuse me of lazyness does little to add to the discussion.

they are different games. different mechanics. talking about them does not improve the level of discussion about enmity in FFXIV. I'm not getting into this. it is irrelevant. WoW and FFXI are fundamentally different than 14. do not bring them to this discussion.

As I said, one is the template, the other is SE's version of the template. I have issues with SE's version of the template when it plays in an inferior manner, and as such I wish it could be corrected in a way that the job's design and gameplay makes sense. Removing WoW from the conversation, I can list my problems with PLD.

1) Low base weapon damage (class-inherent): This would be fine, if both tank classes in this game were designed to do low damage. That's not the case, as we both know. If one was designed around big hits but infrequent hits, and the other was designed around more special attack/ability spam (netting both similar DPS in the process), you might be on to something. They've tried to compensate for this by allowing sword weapon skills to ignore mob defense, which only circumvents the problem instead of fixing it.

2) Lack of inherent enmity modifiers (applies to both tanks, actually): This gives way to the stupidity of +/- Enmity on gear and materia (which is a waste of stats in the greater picture). In case you forgot, SE even decided to buff enmity on materia to make it more appealing and look like less of a waste. Of course, things sadly went in the other direction and now the things' are pricey as hell. That part of the item budget could go into other things, too.

3) AoE damage/aggro (or lack thereof): The original reason why people pissed all over PLD, and the thing the current design is trying to allow in the form of "niche" gameplay. Instead of addressing this (notice how some of us want Circle Slash back and a shorter cooldown on War Drum?), they chose to up shield block chance and make sword WS ignore mob defense to create an excuse for people to not ignore PLD.

4) Poor job direction: Putting healing on a tank for survivability is one thing. Designing the tank to encourage them to heal others is asking for trouble. As you seem to ignore this over and over, I'll say it again - the tank has plenty to worry about, and should not have to bother looking at other people's lifebars, as their job is to hold mob aggro and not die, not do part of the healer's job.

And I very much doubt encounter and boss mechanics are going to stay exactly as they are right now. You're not going to have time to heal others if you're switching hate with another tank, avoiding environmentals hazards, jumping or doing other things to prevent debuffs from stacking, kiting walls of fire while trying to stay alive, avoiding poison geisers, chaining debuffs on the boss and much much more. At most you might get a chance to toss around heals during air phases, but even then that's tertiary utility. If my wanting more movement and more action in tank gameplay and encounters in general makes me lazy, then I am guilty as charged.

Damage=hate. if you do no damage, the multiplier does nothing.

Guess you forgot that baseline enmity modifiers in tank classes work in tandem with any built-in enmity bonuses abilities and attacks have and are not standalone. You can have abilities that do low damage but have high enmity modifiers on their own BEFORE factoring in aggro bonuses inherent to being a tank. It's legacy tank design from before the "tank DPS matters" idea caught on. Phalanx plays into this because it is smack in the middle, which is not a good place to be when you take into account that reactionary abilities should be worthwhile rather than just there until you complete Parley on High Ground (still LFG for that one, btw).

we don't need boosters to our current actions, we need more actions to do period.

If nothing else, you and I agree on this point.

Of course, I mention class-inherent enmity boosts in context of removing "+/- Enmity" from the game. If you entirely remove +/- Enmity gear and materia from the game, you need something to fill the gap. Where you want VIT and MND being enmity modifiers for everything, I say just give the classes a native enmity multiplier and build/balance each class' abilities around that. If only because I don't think enmity modifiers should be tampered with by stats.

[Synfrag]

4) Poor job direction: Putting healing on a tank for survivability is one thing. Designing the tank to encourage them to heal others is asking for trouble. As you seem to ignore this over and over, I'll say it again - the tank has plenty to worry about, and should not have to bother looking at other people's lifebars, as their job is to hold mob aggro and not die, not do part of the healer's job.

lolwhat? Wow that sounds like a hefty load there buddy! You need some help with that?

Tank has 3 things to worry about: position, hate and skill cooldowns.

Position is kinda a no brainer it's the basics of moving around. All the classes have to do it. DD have to position for weaponskills and avoid AoEs. Mages have to do it to avoid AoEs and handle when the tank gets knocked out of range.

Hate is guess what, not just managed by tanks. Mages use -Emnity skills as they are pumping cures and nukes. Other melee should also be paying attention to the threat meter.

Lastly we have skill cooldowns. You have to make sure you stay on top of your skills to maintain hate right? Well melee DDs have to pay attention to them as well to maintain high damage output. Again as above mages are dropping CDs on MP recovery, DMG output, AoE Buffs, Instant raises while casting spells which you have to be standing still for yet somehow be able to reach 6-7 people scattered everywhere.

So, If a tanks job isn't to look at party HP does that mean it's not a mages job to look at the threat meter? Or do anything about it when it starts flashing red? That's the tanks job why do I even have this stupid Enmity reduction skill. Stupid, Stupid SE...

If you don't have WHM leveled yet I'd suggest you learn the other side before having a nerdrage. It adds complexity to the game and, well, maybe you just aren't built for tanking? If I can heal 6-7 people, stay alive, manage my MP and hate generation while continuing to throw out buffs, regens and the occasional raise and nuke, I think you can toss a cure or two to the front liners.

[Lux_Rayna]

1) Low base weapon damage (class-inherent): This would be fine, if both tank classes in this game were designed to do low damage. That's not the case, as we both know. If one was designed around big hits but infrequent hits, and the other was designed around more special attack/ability spam (netting both similar DPS in the process), you might be on to something. They've tried to compensate for this by allowing sword weapon skills to ignore mob defense, which only circumvents the problem instead of fixing it.

This is only a problem because Defense is meaningless right now, which was supposed to be the PLD's shining point.

2) Lack of inherent enmity modifiers (applies to both tanks, actually): This gives way to the stupidity of +/- Enmity on gear and materia (which is a waste of stats in the greater picture). In case you forgot, SE even decided to buff enmity on materia to make it more appealing and look like less of a waste. Of course, things sadly went in the other direction and now the things' are pricey as hell. That part of the item budget could go into other things, too.

I think +enmity is fine. DD's just need to realize that they can't do max dmg the entire time. As a Bard I have to manage my threat constantly. Like constantly. Its not a class problem, its a retard DD problem.

3) AoE damage/aggro (or lack thereof): The original reason why people pissed all over PLD, and the thing the current design is trying to allow in the form of "niche" gameplay. Instead of addressing this (notice how some of us want Circle Slash back and a shorter cooldown on War Drum?), they chose to up shield block chance and make sword WS ignore mob defense to create an excuse for people to not ignore PLD.

The way I understood it is that PLD is a boss tank, while WAR is more of a trash mob tank. PLD is 1v1, while WAR is AoE. Its like how you have single-target dps classes and aoe bomb dps classes.

4) Poor job direction: Putting healing on a tank for survivability is one thing. Designing the tank to encourage them to heal others is asking for trouble. As you seem to ignore this over and over, I'll say it again - the tank has plenty to worry about, and should not have to bother looking at other people's lifebars, as their job is to hold mob aggro and not die, not do part of the healer's job.

Why would he be looking at ppl's health bars? The healing is there so the PLD can heal himself...as in he looks at his own health bar. Or he could drop sacred prism cures as part of his hate rotation. The idea is a great one actually, its just people are too pigeon-holed into whatever silly class mechanics this community decided on. Why do you think WHMs can pull so much hate? Healing generates enmity. PLD get extra enmity genercation because, derp, they have cures. There it is, the enmity generation you are looking for. Just put prism cure on a rotation and be amazed. It takes some pressure off of your WHMs, and generates extra hate. What is the problem? Who said the PLD had to act like a WHM. Keep prism cure cooldown and thats it!

And I very much doubt encounter and boss mechanics are going to stay exactly as they are right now. You're not going to have time to heal others if you're switching hate with another tank, avoiding environmentals hazards, jumping or doing other things to prevent debuffs from stacking, kiting walls of fire while trying to stay alive, avoiding poison geisers, chaining debuffs on the boss and much much more. At most you might get a chance to toss around heals during air phases, but even then that's tertiary utility. If my wanting more movement and more action in tank gameplay and encounters in general makes me lazy, then I am guilty as charged.

If you have time to stand still and use a weapon skill, you have time to prism cure. Its not a monumental task, you are being dramatic.