Why the +/- Enmity stat needs to be abolished

[GreyJorildyn]

Flat Blade combo as main source of enmity is laughable on quite a few endgame mobs. In order to let your dps go balls-to-the-wall you will require a certain amount of +enmity, period. You cannot advocate for just one way or the other entirely because each situation is a bit different. I run various enmity/HP hybrid builds for maximum effectiveness in raids with the players I roll with everyday. I know exactly how much enmity I need to keep hate off them on any raid boss. On warrior I require full HDL gear manaburn coincounter and mnk burn MM. It's the same on princess. When I switch to PLD for Chimera, I can drop some enmity out for HP, but only a few points. I've run through these dungeons so many times now, and gotten feedback from my players about red/yellow thresholds that at this point, if anyone says you don't need +enmity in pretty heaps (130-200) to keep hate, then you're not playing in a high-level group. Throwing solely def/hp builds at things is just dragging party potential down.

[Aceofspades]

STOP THE PRESS!!, GREY DOSENT AGREE WITH ME, -.-

soo tell me grey, would you say that , if you couldnt keep hate with your AWSOME set up that you weren't good enough or maybe the DDs werent using hate dumps enough? Or lets say, because of stacking Enmity and neglecting your defensive traits, you happen to get hit realy hard a few times in a row, and then you die, shortly after your party wipes, is that then the WHMs fault? or yours for neglecting damage mitigation?

Dont worry, Im sure you NEVER have either of those things happen to you. But since your keen on placing roles to people in the party, at what point do the DDs have any responsability other then going all out in hopes of the fastest kill possable?

Your entitled to your opinion, but thats all it is, a very biased and apearntly close minded opinion. Unlike you I have actually tested , personally, every posable tank aspect in almost every possable situation. My opinions are just opinions but at least I put some meat to the bones, all you seem to be able to do is throw slander and opinions as tho they were facts. This will likely be the last time I respond to your ignorance. If you happen to post somthing worthy of solid debate then I may enguage , once again, but as you show no hope in becoming open minded , i seriously doubt that will happen.

[GreyJorildyn]

Nope, hasn't happened. Let me know when you do a 17min run or defeat ifrit extreme with your uber setup though. We can debate then.

Btw my PLD has 4581 HP in mostly enmity gear cuz of my melds. Gearing for defense is still gimp and if you haven't been in "every sitution" (see above) then what you just claimed is incorrect. Big surprise there!

[TomCarroll]

Honestly wouldn't be surprised if the enmity stat disappears entirely once 2.0 hits. It's a remnant of xi, where it made more sense because of the ability to gear swap.

Tanks need a stance that modifies their threat generation and boosts defense. That way you can offer more variety to singular classes and jobs. The trade off is that tanking becomes infinitely more faceroll.

[Aceofspades]

Nope, hasn't happened. Let me know when you do a 17min run or defeat ifrit extreme with your uber setup though. We can debate then.

Btw my PLD has 4581 HP in mostly enmity gear cuz of my melds. Gearing for defense is still gimp and if you haven't been in "every sitution" (see above) then what you just claimed is incorrect. Big surprise there!

Tank on War and PLD against lvl 50-55 magic strong mobs: check
Tank on War and PLD against NM mobs : check
Tank on War and PLD against HNM mobs: check
Tank on War and PLD against Boss mobs: check
Tank on War and PLD in every scenario listed above in HP , Defense, Magic Eva, and enmity build gear: check

Pretty sure i have tested every possable scenario, let me ask, have even tried DEF/VIT gear, and im not talking single melds that barley raise either stat. I mean truely testing the stat increases in the same way you have increased your enmity? And do you even realize how LITTLE enmity + dose for pld? you realize that enmity+ is better for war because the way they hold hate is fundamentaly diffrent from PLD? According to how you apearntly gear your PLD you realy dont use or test it enough to understand how it works, or why people DONT need gobs of enmity to do the same exact stuff that you pull off, seems like your taking alot of credit for your role as a tank in your party, judging by the stats you bost, your whms are the only reason you hold hate, if they were to be gimped in anyway , you would likely die and wipe the party in result. I give credit where its due, your not a tank, your a DD in enmity gear that relys on its whms to look like a tank.

[Aceofspades]

Lets clarify what "Tank" is, shouldnt be rocket science, the name is its first indicator. Tanks, by nature , take (or at least they SHOULD) far less damage then any other party member. They hold hate on them selves to share its advantages with the party. Lets make no mistake, without survivability, there would be no "Tank" classes. we would just have dds and realy good whms. Tank is supposed to mitigate damage, that is what it dose, by definition, PERIOD.

Now, how dose hp out weigh damage mitigation? IT DOSENT! I mean realy, dose this realy need to be explained? even if you swaped 10 hp for mitigating 1 point of damage per hit, you just gained on that trade for any fight lasting longer then 3 minutes. Using the completly un backed claim that "defense is broken" is a way for those who already wasted a ton of time and gil on hp/enmity builds to contiue to feel justified in their gear. Listen, if you get the job doen, great, happy for you, but dont come on here preaching that its "best in slot" gear, that is your opinion and nothing more. I would suggest people to test stats thouroghly before taking anything said on the forums to heart, even what I say, Hell I would be estatic to see people test 1k def 400 vit builds, they would probably fall in love with the idea of not needing a whm every second on the fight to stay alive, but that is my opinion and I will leave it at that.

[GreyJorildyn]

judging by the stats you bost, your whms are the only reason you hold hate, if they were to be gimped in anyway , you would likely die and wipe the party in result. I give credit where its due, your not a tank, your a DD in enmity gear that relys on its whms to look like a tank.

LOL

Cool story bro.

Did you do any speed runs yet? Defeat Garuda Hard? Kill Ifrit Extreme? You always avoid answering these questions because you haven't done it and therefore only live in your own little bubble of how you play, rather than how it can be played.

I think my tanking experience goes far deeper than yours. But you wouldn't know that since you make a lot of assumptions. The irony of all of this is you call me out for not being open-minded after I made a post about having several gear sets which do not entirely stack enmity. Come on dude, your tanking experience is rooted in pick up groups and yet you come on these boards trying to give people advice about how to gear themselves out in the best way, but the reality of it is you are only teaching people to be just like you, which is objectively geared improperly. I disagree with you because our opinions differ on how to gear. I will not dispute that DEF and mitigating damage is "good", but it doesn't help you when your MNK DPS is 150+ and BLM is 120+. You won't be holding hate dude, but you wouldn't know that because your DPS probably don't break 80 DPS.

If this thread is about the efficacy of the enmity +/- system, then if it were to be abolished, more significant multipliers would be required across the board inherent to combos. Additionally, certain abilities would just flat out need to give more enmity. The system is dynamic now because you can mix and match sets to make something workable for your group. What I've argued is that when the other 7 people in your party start gearing to the teeth (triple/quad melds), tanks require +enmity to maintain themselves in the end game due to the nature of physical damage resistance on several different mobs. Flat Blade will not cut it, regardless of how often you spam it. In fact I've found that the goring blade combo actually grants more enmity on stuff like Chimera because Savage Blade does more damage than Flat Blade and Goring Blade adds a third hit for quite a bit of damage. Do the math, whatever you want to do, but if you telli me that you can tank Chimera in a 4:00 zergfest with DEF/DPS gear onry on PLD and no enmity boost, then you better bring a video to back up the claim. The only way you might pull that off is being your own healer for the vast majority of that fight, and it will not be nearly as smooth or simple as being geared the proper way according to your party setup and damage.

[yialee]

all i gotta say is this person need to be slap in the face b/c a good tank can keep hate + keep themself alive instead of standing there spaming cure and hate. if you choose to keep yourself alive more than put more enmity gear on and do so otherwise keep voke and drop hp gear

[Aceofspades]

LOL

Cool story bro.

Did you do any speed runs yet? Defeat Garuda Hard? Kill Ifrit Extreme? You always avoid answering these questions because you haven't done it and therefore only live in your own little bubble of how you play, rather than how it can be played.

I think my tanking experience goes far deeper than yours. But you wouldn't know that since you make a lot of assumptions. The irony of all of this is you call me out for not being open-minded after I made a post about having several gear sets which do not entirely stack enmity. Come on dude, your tanking experience is rooted in pick up groups and yet you come on these boards trying to give people advice about how to gear themselves out in the best way, but the reality of it is you are only teaching people to be just like you, which is objectively geared improperly. I disagree with you because our opinions differ on how to gear. I will not dispute that DEF and mitigating damage is "good", but it doesn't help you when your MNK DPS is 150+ and BLM is 120+. You won't be holding hate dude, but you wouldn't know that because your DPS probably don't break 80 DPS.

If this thread is about the efficacy of the enmity +/- system, then if it were to be abolished, more significant multipliers would be required across the board inherent to combos. Additionally, certain abilities would just flat out need to give more enmity. The system is dynamic now because you can mix and match sets to make something workable for your group. What I've argued is that when the other 7 people in your party start gearing to the teeth (triple/quad melds), tanks require +enmity to maintain themselves in the end game due to the nature of physical damage resistance on several different mobs. Flat Blade will not cut it, regardless of how often you spam it. In fact I've found that the goring blade combo actually grants more enmity on stuff like Chimera because Savage Blade does more damage than Flat Blade and Goring Blade adds a third hit for quite a bit of damage. Do the math, whatever you want to do, but if you telli me that you can tank Chimera in a 4:00 zergfest with DEF/DPS gear onry on PLD and no enmity boost, then you better bring a video to back up the claim. The only way you might pull that off is being your own healer for the vast majority of that fight, and it will not be nearly as smooth or simple as being geared the proper way according to your party setup and damage.

realy? -.-

You honestly think 150dps is challanging to hold hate on? Your right that I dont have dungeons complete. but I only get 3 hours on the weekends to do endgame content, thats given I dont have to go to drill that weekend. Other then that I am busy lvling jobs and gearing my tank. Going against mobs that your DPS dose less damage on is NOT a test of enmity , especially on pld. PLD dosent use DPS as a main stay for enmity. The fact that YOU keep dodging this fact just proves you are ignoring how PLD actually holds hate and why enmity gear is not as important as other stats, mind offers more for enmity on pld then enmity materia. I hold hate when my dps are doing 600-1200 + damage to a mob. Is it garuda? no, but it dosent matter, they are essentually pulling more hate then your dds doing 150 on garuda. Soo grats on the garuda run but you are still clueless as to how enmity works on this game, you just assume that +enmity is the end all for ALL tanks, and it simply is not. I am willing to bet, you tank more on your WAR then your PLD because you find its easier to hold hate.

[GreyJorildyn]

I tank on both but PLD is only really better on Chimera as far as dungeons go. Ifrt extreme was PLD too and I have a Curtana. I actually know how to tank quite well and also have more experience than you as you clearly admitted. We may both understand the enmity system but I have applied that knowledge in more situations.

Just last night I decided to try something different on WAR and swapled my HDL gauntlets for felt bracers with str+50, just to see if I could hold hate but do a bit more damage. Nope, it got ripped off me, just barely, about 70% into the fight. Was easy to get it back but it showed me that I need every piece of enmity gear I wear in a zerg like that. It's a delicate balance sometimes, other times it isn't. PLD certainly widens the gaps at times but conditions also need to be right. You can throw a PLD at any mob, sure, but that doesn't means it's the best choice every time.