Curtana :(

[Judge_Xero]

People who don't understand stats and how they effect DPS are the ones who dismiss PLD's ability to DPS.

Most PLD are shitty at keeping combo on cooldown because they don't undestand game mechanics so they don't bother with the combo's out of fast > flat phalanx>SW. Raising STR 1STR=.8dmg 1MND=.7dmg
I can wear HDL gloves for 45enmity or 4.5% enmity on every action, or tripple STR gloves 50STR(+5acc)=>40dmg to every WS I perform.

My base fast blade on chimera is avg 18dmg in full enmity gear BUT my base dmg with the glove swap is 58DMG

5.5x total enmity on flat blade in combo:
18(5.5) = 99 + (4.5% enmity on gloves) = 103.5 total enmity on flat blade with HDL gloves
58(5.5) = 319 total enmity with STR gloves

As far as curtana goes the MP drain and SW bonus dmg is SUBSTANTIAL not to mention you also get the BIS shield. To me this is the single best relic of the group in total performance gains by the job over its BiS alternative including company gear.

Glad someone already posted some numbers on this
My favourite part this stuff TBH.

So Enmity VS STR (or MND) for PLD is:

1 ENM ='s 0.1% of Damage
1 STR ='s 0.8 extra Damage (up to probably 340 STR, similar to DD classes other than BRD)(also depending on weapon)
MND ='s 0.7 extra Damage (up to probably 310 MND, similar to other secondary stats)

So basically, the only time ENM>STR or MND is Either on Provoke/Flash/Rampart where damage is not included.
The only time 1 ENM ='s 1 STR or 1 MND is around a 700-800 Damage hit.

With a Quick calculation then, with a STR/MND build (bonus stats being divided into STR and MND as well) up to cap,
you can increase your WS Damage output by 50% on PLD, thus increasing enmity by 50% on average.
(Flat Blade Combo can be up to 400%)

Going with strictly ENM, between 300-400, that's an increase of 30-40% of low damage output.
Roughly 20% overall

So STR + MND ='s more damage and more Enmity Generation

It'd be dabateable if an Enmity Belt for PLD is even worth it over Double HP.

[GreyJorildyn]

Glad someone already posted some numbers on this
My favourite part this stuff TBH.

So Enmity VS STR (or MND) for PLD is:

1 ENM ='s 0.1% of Damage
1 STR ='s 0.8 extra Damage (up to probably 340 STR, similar to DD classes other than BRD)(also depending on weapon)
MND ='s 0.7 extra Damage (up to probably 310 MND, similar to other secondary stats)

So basically, the only time ENM>STR or MND is Either on Provoke/Flash/Rampart where damage is not included.
The only time 1 ENM ='s 1 STR or 1 MND is around a 700-800 Damage hit.

With a Quick calculation then, with a STR/MND build (bonus stats being divided into STR and MND as well) up to cap,
you can increase your WS Damage output by 50% on PLD, thus increasing enmity by 50% on average.
(Flat Blade Combo can be up to 400%)

Going with strictly ENM, between 300-400, that's an increase of 30-40% of low damage output.
Roughly 20% overall

So STR + MND ='s more damage and more Enmity Generation

It'd be dabateable if an Enmity Belt for PLD is even worth it over Double HP.

This post is I dun even know...

You're not really considering the full extent of Enmity adding base percentage. For every hundred damage you add, each +10 enmity you add is acting as if 1 additional damage is done. When you're talking stacking enmity to like +200, then it's add 20% to all actions AND 20% to all damage done. Unfortunately you see faster gains in enmity on higher level mobs adding straight enmity bonus in bulk rather than attempting to reach stat caps, thus why HDL is better gear when running with players who zerg bosses down. What you've neglected to realize, or perhaps haven't experienced yet, is that your damage output is utter crap compared to everyone else on high level mobs. Tanks cannot rely on enmity-through-damage as they might be able to in XP parties (wouldn't know, this is before my time anyway).

Now if you're playing this game with PUGs or average players, different story I guess. You probably won't need as much enmity to keep hate against average geared BLMs compared to high-end geared BLMs. As such, you can't say adding damage is better than enmity because in actuality as players move towards the higher-end of the game (natural tendency) in gear and skill, enmity bonus on tanks is actually king.

[SwordCoheir]

This post is I dun even know...

It's the extent of where +Enmity can be added, that doesn't deface the value of other sources of Enmity (IE: Damage/WS) in turn defacing the value of the added Enmity to begin with. Frankly unless your going for a more defensive setup you lose wayyyy too damn much potential equipping HDL.

In my case wearing a full HDL set I lose

-50 STR
-35 MND
-8 DEX
-90 Evasion

And gain

+4 VIT
+42 DEF
+115 Enmity = 11.5% Enmity increase

Knocking my stats down so much for a slight enmity/defense boost is really counterproductive considering Voke, Rampart, and Flash ARE NOT our main nor primary source of Hate generation. Even swapping out my Electrum Gorget +1 and STR rings +1 for Acc on Garuda knocked my auto attack damage about 40 or 50 points, dropping my main damage modifiers down to the 250 range would be catastrophic to my damage and hate generation, in turn making that little 11.5% boost lose face value.

IE:
Sword hits Ifrit with Gorging blade for 500.
Sword equips full HDL armor.
Sword hit's Ifrit with Gorging blade for 400.

400 * 11.5% = 46 + 400 = 446 (-54 enmity from previous setup)

The WS numbers arn't based on any actual math however so the loss would probably be far greater than that given in the example mind you. You also must consider auto-attack damage, combo modifiers (which amplifies enmity produced by damage), and Accuracy (missing = no Enmity gained yada, yada, yada) otherwise you just throw the whole point of added +Enmity out the window.

[HoolieWho]

Knocking my stats down so much for a slight enmity/defense boost is really counterproductive considering Voke, Rampart, and Flash ARE NOT our main nor primary source of Hate generation.

You forgot to mention your cures and the damage from Spirit's Within. Together with Flash, Provoke and Rampart, none of these skills are significantly affected by STR/MND/ATK as far as I know. I thought I remembered reading about MND affecting the combo bonus of either Flat Blade or Spirit's Within, but I can't find anything now.

People who don't understand stats and how they effect DPS are the ones who dismiss PLD's ability to DPS.

Most PLD are shitty at keeping combo on cooldown because they don't undestand game mechanics so they don't bother with the combo's out of fast > flat phalanx>SW. Raising STR 1STR=.8dmg 1MND=.7dmg
I can wear HDL gloves for 45enmity or 4.5% enmity on every action, or tripple STR gloves 50STR(+5acc)=>40dmg to every WS I perform.

My base fast blade on chimera is avg 18dmg in full enmity gear BUT my base dmg with the glove swap is 58DMG

5.5x total enmity on flat blade in combo:
18(5.5) = 99 + (4.5% enmity on gloves) = 103.5 total enmity on flat blade with HDL gloves
58(5.5) = 319 total enmity with STR gloves

As Tango has pointed out, the combo bonus on Flat Blade makes a strong case for STR over enmity in slots where they compete.

I see parse results for damage done to Garuda, but I don't see parse results for # of times flashed/provoked/ramparted and amount cured. And I don't see a breakdown for how much of the damage is coming from Flat Blade and Spirit's Within in combo. All of these factor into an analysis of enmity vs STR/MND/Atk.

As for ACC, yes, of course you want near cap accuracy so you can generate TP and land combos. It's after you get your ACC up that you debate other tanking stats.

[SwordCoheir]

You forgot to mention your cures and the damage from Spirit's Within. Together with Flash, Provoke and Rampart, none of these skills are significantly affected by STR/MND/ATK as far as I know. I thought I remembered reading about MND affecting the combo bonus of either Flat Blade or Spirit's Within, but I can't find anything now.

Your right I did forget to mention that (2am postings I tend to forget a few things XD), and to be truthful those are the abilities that get the biggest boost from +Enmity overall because no stat but Enmity affects Rampart, Voke, or Flash's base values.

Cures are kind of a toss up when it comes to Enmity generation, you only get roughly .6 of the amount cured with a limited MP supply, toss in how well the WHM can keep you topped off (which Gar does pretty well) and the fact you can't over-cure anymore tend's to devalue the merit of Curing for Enmity outside of the NEED to actually cure yourself/others in oh-shit moments.

As far as the number of times abilities are used, I think we could guesstimate based on our average duration in the fight which amounts to roughly 8-10 minutes. Soooo probably 12-15 Apiece for Flash and Voke and 3-5 Ramparts, taking into consideration you have to time yourself around her jumps and if she decides to take her sweet time traveling back to us to get in range of flash/voke/melee.

I know I only get 1-2 full cures off a fight (Gar tends to cure me before my spell goes off XD).

In anycase I'll see about getting DH to parse that little stuff next fight.

[Tango]

Unfortunately you see faster gains in enmity on higher level mobs adding straight enmity bonus in bulk rather than attempting to reach stat caps, thus why HDL is better gear when running with players who zerg bosses down. What you've neglected to realize, or perhaps haven't experienced yet, is that your damage output is utter crap compared to everyone else on high level mobs. Tanks cannot rely on enmity-through-damage as they might be able to in XP parties (wouldn't know, this is before my time anyway).

This is the hart of the missunderstanding for you Grey (and I know you know your sh-- I've seen your posts all over the forums) The idea that you deal such low dmg to high lvl mobs is exactly where a DPS build can show the MOST gains in total enmity generation. The idea is that against a mob like Chimera your avg PLD is going to focus on enmity from phalanx>SW and voke/flash, some will also sprinkle in holly succor. Because fast>flat is generating under 100 total enmity(in HDL) from the combo the good PLD's don't use this.

Swap in a full DPS set and boost your overall STR/MND:
head(cobal celata) - 3str 48mnd
hands(cobalt gaunt) - 3mnd 48str
body(darksteel haub) - 7str 8acc
rings - 18str - 18mnd
wrist - 4str
legs - 20str
-----------
str - 100 = (+80dmg per ws)
mnd - 69 = (+48dmg per ws)
enmity loss 12.5%

60 second rotation:
[voke/flash/fast>flat] (x2)
phalanx>SW (x1)
holy succor (x1 -this is just guessing and avg heal in base gear is 1k so roughly 650enmity base)
--------------------------
in HDL the above generates:
568+363+15+(15(5.5)) = 1028.5 x 2 = 2057
100+400(2.5) = 1100
650
total: 3807 + 12.5% = 4283

in DPS the above generates:
568+363+143+(143(5.5)) = 1860.5 x 2 = 3721
243+400(2.5)(assuming SW is not affected by stats and i'm 99% sure its just HP based) = 1243
650
total: 5614 (no enmity bonus differential vs HDL setup)


I'm also ignoring the HP losses on the set and in many cases you can bump up the cure's per minute but I'm pretty sure the pure enmity per second EPS favors a DPS gearset, the above theory is based on a fight against chimera and is mostly from parse results but I don't have exact #'s in front of me so do your own testing but a DPS set is worth at least some consideration.

[Zdenka]

str - 100 = (+80dmg per ws)
mnd - 69 = (+48dmg per ws)

After reading your post our tank tried to swap around his gear set to get more str.

He gained +74 STR, which should be +60 per WS right?

His Flat blade went from 15 (HDL gauntlet, VIT allocation) to 20-22 (STR gloves, STR allocation).

Something is wrong with that formula, or it doesn't account for the defenses of such mobs as Chimera but he gained roughly 6 damage, not 60 unless Chimera has an inherent -90% physical damage taken. BRD also does really really pitiful damage on him too, and raising to stat caps doesn't help some WS's at all such as Gloom arrow it seems.

edit--
Tank tried one more time at +124 STR and flat blades still in 20-24 range.

He said spirits rose a lot, however, just not Flat Blade.