Curtana :(

[Tango]

People who don't understand stats and how they effect DPS are the ones who dismiss PLD's ability to DPS.

Most PLD are shitty at keeping combo on cooldown because they don't undestand game mechanics so they don't bother with the combo's out of fast > flat phalanx>SW. Raising STR 1STR=.8dmg 1MND=.7dmg
I can wear HDL gloves for 45enmity or 4.5% enmity on every action, or tripple STR gloves 50STR(+5acc)=>40dmg to every WS I perform.

My base fast blade on chimera is avg 18dmg in full enmity gear BUT my base dmg with the glove swap is 58DMG

5.5x total enmity on flat blade in combo:
18(5.5) = 99 + (4.5% enmity on gloves) = 103.5 total enmity on flat blade with HDL gloves
58(5.5) = 319 total enmity with STR gloves

As far as curtana goes the MP drain and SW bonus dmg is SUBSTANTIAL not to mention you also get the BIS shield. To me this is the single best relic of the group in total performance gains by the job over its BiS alternative including company gear.

[Quatre]

People who don't understand stats and how they effect DPS are the ones who dismiss PLD's ability to DPS.

Most PLD are shitty at keeping combo on cooldown because they don't undestand game mechanics so they don't bother with the combo's out of fast > flat phalanx>SW. Raising STR 1STR=.8dmg 1MND=.7dmg
I can wear HDL gloves for 45enmity or 4.5% enmity on every action, or tripple STR gloves 50STR(+5acc)=>40dmg to every WS I perform.

My base fast blade on chimera is avg 18dmg in full enmity gear BUT my base dmg with the glove swap is 58DMG

5.5x total enmity on flat blade in combo:
18(5.5) = 99 + (4.5% enmity on gloves) = 103.5 total enmity on flat blade with HDL gloves
58(5.5) = 319 total enmity with STR gloves

As far as curtana goes the MP drain and SW bonus dmg is SUBSTANTIAL not to mention you also get the BIS shield. To me this is the single best relic of the group in total performance gains by the job over its BiS alternative including company gear.

Some more solid reasoning of why Enmity isn't quite the strongest stat in the game.


@Sword thanks for your break down, I'll definitely look into creating a set like this for instances such as garuda and other fights that might arise.


@Ronik- Don't you think it's odd that the Warrior weapon has Enmity, and the Paladin weapon does not? Warrior who is supposed to be a Damage Dealer first and a tank second? There's a whole lot of tunnel vision happening in this post.

[SwordCoheir]

Some more solid reasoning of why Enmity isn't quite the strongest stat in the game.
@Ronik- Don't you think it's odd that the Warrior weapon has Enmity, and the Paladin weapon does not? Warrior who is supposed to be a Damage Dealer first and a tank second? There's a whole lot of tunnel vision happening in this post.

Kind of on the same token as WAR AF getting Enmity. It's got some good pieces in there, but at the same time it's a juggling fest between trying to reduce Enmity on Key pieces and put out some good damage in the process w/o drawing hate.

But let's be honest unless it's an AoE spamfest like Garuda's Plumes people don't really use WAR for anything but tanking.

[Quatre]

Kind of on the same token as WAR AF getting Enmity. It's got some good pieces in there, but at the same time it's a juggling fest between trying to reduce Enmity on Key pieces and put out some good damage in the process w/o drawing hate.

But let's be honest unless it's an AoE spamfest like Garuda's Plumes people don't really use WAR for anything but tanking.

Yeah this is true. Especially since a lot of the class itemization is drawn around enmity it makes it hard for Warriors to DPS to full potential without drawing hate. Warriors are very useful for Princess and Ifrit Extreme too. When it comes to single target DPS, the way things are right now people will probably take a DRG or MNK. Although a great geared warrior can push damage also, an equally geared DRG or MNK will probably do more damage while drawing less enmity. At least in my experience.

Your other knowledge has been really insightful to be honest, so i'm totally up for hearing you out if you have a different take on things.

[SwordCoheir]

Your other knowledge has been really insightful to be honest, so i'm totally up for hearing you out if you have a different take on things.

Sure, I'm more than happy to share a few thoughts if you got a question for something.

[Ronik]

@Ronik- Don't you think it's odd that the Warrior weapon has Enmity, and the Paladin weapon does not? Warrior who is supposed to be a Damage Dealer first and a tank second? There's a whole lot of tunnel vision happening in this post.

Did you even read my post? It's like the entire thing went over your damned head. Do you still not understand how accuracy is as immensely useful and potent a tanking stat as enmity is?

Also, why are you making the claim that WAR is a "damage dealer first and a tank second"? There is absolutely NO indication of that being even remotely true: in fact, I would go as far to say that you're flat-out wrong about this. Here is the official class description for WAR on the lodestone page:

"Warriors have the honor of possessing the highest HP of any class or job. Thriving on the enmity of his foes, there is no fiercer fighter on the field of battle."

Now, where in there do you see "damage dealer first" because I *certainly* do not. Oh, wait, it's not there. A WAR's job is to be a balance between taking damage and outputting damage, and the design intent is that accomplishing the former helps to improve the latter. Or did you miss the part where 3 of the 5 abilities unlocked by the WAR class are specifically tanking abilities?

Again, you do not appear to have a clear grasp on either tanking mechanics (have you even attempted Garuda or done any of the relic quest?) nor class design (where the hell are you getting that WAR is primarily a DD?).

[Quatre]

Did you even read my post? It's like the entire thing went over your damned head. Do you still not understand how accuracy is as immensely useful and potent a tanking stat as enmity is?

Also, why are you making the claim that WAR is a "damage dealer first and a tank second"? There is absolutely NO indication of that being even remotely true: in fact, I would go as far to say that you're flat-out wrong about this. Here is the official class description for WAR on the lodestone page:

"Warriors have the honor of possessing the highest HP of any class or job. Thriving on the enmity of his foes, there is no fiercer fighter on the field of battle."

Now, where in there do you see "damage dealer first" because I *certainly* do not. Oh, wait, it's not there. A WAR's job is to be a balance between taking damage and outputting damage, and the design intent is that accomplishing the former helps to improve the latter. Or did you miss the part where 3 of the 5 abilities unlocked by the WAR class are specifically tanking abilities?

Again, you do not appear to have a clear grasp on either tanking mechanics (have you even attempted Garuda or done any of the relic quest?) nor class design (where the hell are you getting that WAR is primarily a DD?).

Have -you- read any of my other posts? Your posts are filled with nothing but inciting elitist asshole-ism.

Feel free to check my achievements, I've done all the content in the game except for Ifrit Extreme (Have you even attempted this yet?)

After some valid arguments from some of the intelligent members of the Paladin community I can see the strength of Accuracy is much higher than I'd previously thought it. However, Nowhere did I say accuracy was a BAD thing.


Your argument is incredibly flawed and lacks to even acknowledge what the Paladin Lodestone description is.

"The paladin job sacrifices maximum HP, but this is compensated by way of greatly enhanced defense as well as the ability to cast healing magic. Valiant by nature, a paladin can shield his comrades from blows, making him the unyielding rock upon which a party’s defense is built."
Being the FIERCEST FIGHTER on the field sounds quite a bit like damage dealing. Being an Unyielding rock upon which a party's defense is built sounds quite a bit like tanking.


My entire rant is about all of the tank Itemization on Warrior, when it belongs on the -tank- class.
I didn't miss the part where Three out of Five the abilities unlocked on warrior are Tank Abilities, and it makes total sense for an OFFTANK to gain access to these, considering SE's "Vision" laid out in this thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...764#post449764 It's intended for the warrior to be able to "Throw the attacks back at the boss"(To deal damage) or take a few hits. Paladin is clearly the one envisioned to be the tank. Do I need to link anything else to prove this?

If you're not going to contribute anything to the conversation, or say anything remotely intelligent i'd suggest you go to the general forums to spend your days.

[Ryans]

Your argument is incredibly flawed and lacks to even acknowledge what the Paladin Lodestone description is.

"The paladin job sacrifices maximum HP, but this is compensated by way of greatly enhanced defense as well as the ability to cast healing magic. Valiant by nature, a paladin can shield his comrades from blows, making him the unyielding rock upon which a party’s defense is built."
Being the FIERCEST FIGHTER on the field sounds quite a bit like damage dealing. Being an Unyielding rock upon which a party's defense is built sounds quite a bit like tanking.


My entire rant is about all of the tank Itemization on Warrior, when it belongs on the -tank- class.
I didn't miss the part where Three out of Five the abilities unlocked on warrior are Tank Abilities, and it makes total sense for an OFFTANK to gain access to these, considering SE's "Vision" laid out in this thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...764#post449764 It's intended for the warrior to be able to "Throw the attacks back at the boss"(To deal damage) or take a few hits. Paladin is clearly the one envisioned to be the tank. Do I need to link anything else to prove this?
.

Get off your high horse and look at the real world application of the two jobs. If something can tank each and every piece of end game content, it is a main tank. Plain and simple. I don't care if warrior had the description of "I take hits like a pussy but deal the best damage." IF it can tank effectively, its a main tank. So stop calling warrior an off tank.

Also, consider the fact that there is only one fight (Princess) where you need an off tank and I wouldn't be surprised if pug or lnc could tank the add.

To throw in my two cents about enmity on Curtana, who needs it? If you have a relic, you will probably have best-in-slot gear every where else and know how to play your job. Sure, it would be nice to have it all on a relic but it would just be overkill. If everyone in your group is playing correctly, no one should have to hold back for fear of enmity.

[Brannigan]

Also, consider the fact that there is only one fight (Princess) where you need an off tank and I wouldn't be surprised if pug or lnc could tank the add.

Marshall actually hits a lot harder than princess. You can dodge his WSes but he still melees like a truck.

As far as accuracy goes, in most mmorpgs tanks aim for consistency. The term "solid rock" is pretty accurate. You want consistent hate generation and defense so your party members know how much they can damage/heal/whatever. Having your hate generation at the start of a fight get delayed because you're whiffing phalanxes sucks.

[PiedPiper]

Also, consider the fact that there is only one fight (Princess) where you need an off tank and I wouldn't be surprised if pug or lnc could tank the add.

Just as a side note... you don't actually NEED an off tank for Princess. We run PLD WHM BLM DRGx5 (sometimes one MNK) on the princess fight and I (the PLD) have no problem surviving without using Hallowed (I don't have it up anyway since i go WAR for the first rooms). To be clear: I tank both the Princess and the Marshal. And I'm not super built for def/vit either, only 710 and 305 (numbers before protect). I just use DV then Sent once marshal is on me, boon after sent, and... princess is dead. Granted this probably only works in groups with very good DD's, as the longer I stand there the more time I'd spend "naked" without cool downs and probably get eaten.

As to the larger topic of the thread. Dude. Accuracy. Its awesome. Cry more. I rock 182 enmity, and honestly, Curtana will more than make up for the 30 I'd lose in the switch (Garuda/Thoromen's) in just the damage, dps, and spirits boost alone, much less the mp and accuracy.

After reading your post our tank tried to swap around his gear set to get more str.

He gained +74 STR, which should be +60 per WS right?

His Flat blade went from 15 (HDL gauntlet, VIT allocation) to 20-22 (STR gloves, STR allocation).

Something is wrong with that formula, or it doesn't account for the defenses of such mobs as Chimera but he gained roughly 6 damage, not 60 unless Chimera has an inherent -90% physical damage taken. BRD also does really really pitiful damage on him too, and raising to stat caps doesn't help some WS's at all such as Gloom arrow it seems.

edit--
Tank tried one more time at +124 STR and flat blades still in 20-24 range.

He said spirits rose a lot, however, just not Flat Blade.

I would really like to see this addressed by the "wear more str/mnd as PLD" camp, because I've had similar experiences boosting my str from a dismal 229 to 310. As someone else mentioned, I was told that MND pumps Spirits and enmity combo, so I actually maintain 304 Mind and suspect the tank mentioned here has a similar amount (just considering that pieces like HDL gloves and Militia hat give mnd). I'm not saying I don't believe in "DD PLD" i'm just not... entirely sold on the numbers?