Curtana :(

[Quatre]

People who don't understand stats and how they effect DPS are the ones who dismiss PLD's ability to DPS.

Most PLD are shitty at keeping combo on cooldown because they don't undestand game mechanics so they don't bother with the combo's out of fast > flat phalanx>SW. Raising STR 1STR=.8dmg 1MND=.7dmg
I can wear HDL gloves for 45enmity or 4.5% enmity on every action, or tripple STR gloves 50STR(+5acc)=>40dmg to every WS I perform.

My base fast blade on chimera is avg 18dmg in full enmity gear BUT my base dmg with the glove swap is 58DMG

5.5x total enmity on flat blade in combo:
18(5.5) = 99 + (4.5% enmity on gloves) = 103.5 total enmity on flat blade with HDL gloves
58(5.5) = 319 total enmity with STR gloves

As far as curtana goes the MP drain and SW bonus dmg is SUBSTANTIAL not to mention you also get the BIS shield. To me this is the single best relic of the group in total performance gains by the job over its BiS alternative including company gear.

Some more solid reasoning of why Enmity isn't quite the strongest stat in the game.


@Sword thanks for your break down, I'll definitely look into creating a set like this for instances such as garuda and other fights that might arise.


@Ronik- Don't you think it's odd that the Warrior weapon has Enmity, and the Paladin weapon does not? Warrior who is supposed to be a Damage Dealer first and a tank second? There's a whole lot of tunnel vision happening in this post.

[SwordCoheir]

Some more solid reasoning of why Enmity isn't quite the strongest stat in the game.
@Ronik- Don't you think it's odd that the Warrior weapon has Enmity, and the Paladin weapon does not? Warrior who is supposed to be a Damage Dealer first and a tank second? There's a whole lot of tunnel vision happening in this post.

Kind of on the same token as WAR AF getting Enmity. It's got some good pieces in there, but at the same time it's a juggling fest between trying to reduce Enmity on Key pieces and put out some good damage in the process w/o drawing hate.

But let's be honest unless it's an AoE spamfest like Garuda's Plumes people don't really use WAR for anything but tanking.

[Quatre]

Kind of on the same token as WAR AF getting Enmity. It's got some good pieces in there, but at the same time it's a juggling fest between trying to reduce Enmity on Key pieces and put out some good damage in the process w/o drawing hate.

But let's be honest unless it's an AoE spamfest like Garuda's Plumes people don't really use WAR for anything but tanking.

Yeah this is true. Especially since a lot of the class itemization is drawn around enmity it makes it hard for Warriors to DPS to full potential without drawing hate. Warriors are very useful for Princess and Ifrit Extreme too. When it comes to single target DPS, the way things are right now people will probably take a DRG or MNK. Although a great geared warrior can push damage also, an equally geared DRG or MNK will probably do more damage while drawing less enmity. At least in my experience.

Your other knowledge has been really insightful to be honest, so i'm totally up for hearing you out if you have a different take on things.

[SwordCoheir]

Your other knowledge has been really insightful to be honest, so i'm totally up for hearing you out if you have a different take on things.

Sure, I'm more than happy to share a few thoughts if you got a question for something.

[Ronik]

@Ronik- Don't you think it's odd that the Warrior weapon has Enmity, and the Paladin weapon does not? Warrior who is supposed to be a Damage Dealer first and a tank second? There's a whole lot of tunnel vision happening in this post.

Did you even read my post? It's like the entire thing went over your damned head. Do you still not understand how accuracy is as immensely useful and potent a tanking stat as enmity is?

Also, why are you making the claim that WAR is a "damage dealer first and a tank second"? There is absolutely NO indication of that being even remotely true: in fact, I would go as far to say that you're flat-out wrong about this. Here is the official class description for WAR on the lodestone page:

"Warriors have the honor of possessing the highest HP of any class or job. Thriving on the enmity of his foes, there is no fiercer fighter on the field of battle."

Now, where in there do you see "damage dealer first" because I *certainly* do not. Oh, wait, it's not there. A WAR's job is to be a balance between taking damage and outputting damage, and the design intent is that accomplishing the former helps to improve the latter. Or did you miss the part where 3 of the 5 abilities unlocked by the WAR class are specifically tanking abilities?

Again, you do not appear to have a clear grasp on either tanking mechanics (have you even attempted Garuda or done any of the relic quest?) nor class design (where the hell are you getting that WAR is primarily a DD?).

[Quatre]

Did you even read my post? It's like the entire thing went over your damned head. Do you still not understand how accuracy is as immensely useful and potent a tanking stat as enmity is?

Also, why are you making the claim that WAR is a "damage dealer first and a tank second"? There is absolutely NO indication of that being even remotely true: in fact, I would go as far to say that you're flat-out wrong about this. Here is the official class description for WAR on the lodestone page:

"Warriors have the honor of possessing the highest HP of any class or job. Thriving on the enmity of his foes, there is no fiercer fighter on the field of battle."

Now, where in there do you see "damage dealer first" because I *certainly* do not. Oh, wait, it's not there. A WAR's job is to be a balance between taking damage and outputting damage, and the design intent is that accomplishing the former helps to improve the latter. Or did you miss the part where 3 of the 5 abilities unlocked by the WAR class are specifically tanking abilities?

Again, you do not appear to have a clear grasp on either tanking mechanics (have you even attempted Garuda or done any of the relic quest?) nor class design (where the hell are you getting that WAR is primarily a DD?).

Have -you- read any of my other posts? Your posts are filled with nothing but inciting elitist asshole-ism.

Feel free to check my achievements, I've done all the content in the game except for Ifrit Extreme (Have you even attempted this yet?)

After some valid arguments from some of the intelligent members of the Paladin community I can see the strength of Accuracy is much higher than I'd previously thought it. However, Nowhere did I say accuracy was a BAD thing.


Your argument is incredibly flawed and lacks to even acknowledge what the Paladin Lodestone description is.

"The paladin job sacrifices maximum HP, but this is compensated by way of greatly enhanced defense as well as the ability to cast healing magic. Valiant by nature, a paladin can shield his comrades from blows, making him the unyielding rock upon which a party’s defense is built."
Being the FIERCEST FIGHTER on the field sounds quite a bit like damage dealing. Being an Unyielding rock upon which a party's defense is built sounds quite a bit like tanking.


My entire rant is about all of the tank Itemization on Warrior, when it belongs on the -tank- class.
I didn't miss the part where Three out of Five the abilities unlocked on warrior are Tank Abilities, and it makes total sense for an OFFTANK to gain access to these, considering SE's "Vision" laid out in this thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...764#post449764 It's intended for the warrior to be able to "Throw the attacks back at the boss"(To deal damage) or take a few hits. Paladin is clearly the one envisioned to be the tank. Do I need to link anything else to prove this?

If you're not going to contribute anything to the conversation, or say anything remotely intelligent i'd suggest you go to the general forums to spend your days.

[Ryans]

Your argument is incredibly flawed and lacks to even acknowledge what the Paladin Lodestone description is.

"The paladin job sacrifices maximum HP, but this is compensated by way of greatly enhanced defense as well as the ability to cast healing magic. Valiant by nature, a paladin can shield his comrades from blows, making him the unyielding rock upon which a party’s defense is built."
Being the FIERCEST FIGHTER on the field sounds quite a bit like damage dealing. Being an Unyielding rock upon which a party's defense is built sounds quite a bit like tanking.


My entire rant is about all of the tank Itemization on Warrior, when it belongs on the -tank- class.
I didn't miss the part where Three out of Five the abilities unlocked on warrior are Tank Abilities, and it makes total sense for an OFFTANK to gain access to these, considering SE's "Vision" laid out in this thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...764#post449764 It's intended for the warrior to be able to "Throw the attacks back at the boss"(To deal damage) or take a few hits. Paladin is clearly the one envisioned to be the tank. Do I need to link anything else to prove this?
.

Get off your high horse and look at the real world application of the two jobs. If something can tank each and every piece of end game content, it is a main tank. Plain and simple. I don't care if warrior had the description of "I take hits like a pussy but deal the best damage." IF it can tank effectively, its a main tank. So stop calling warrior an off tank.

Also, consider the fact that there is only one fight (Princess) where you need an off tank and I wouldn't be surprised if pug or lnc could tank the add.

To throw in my two cents about enmity on Curtana, who needs it? If you have a relic, you will probably have best-in-slot gear every where else and know how to play your job. Sure, it would be nice to have it all on a relic but it would just be overkill. If everyone in your group is playing correctly, no one should have to hold back for fear of enmity.

[Ronik]

Have -you- read any of my other posts? Your posts are filled with nothing but inciting elitist asshole-ism.

Oh, I'm sorry, did I hurt your feelings? Here's a tissue.

Feel free to check my achievements, I've done all the content in the game except for Ifrit Extreme (Have you even attempted this yet?)

Wait, I thought your argument was that I was the elitist here? The irony here is almost chuckle worthy.

It's astonishing how someone can complete content yet still not understand the most basic mechanics of the game, isn't it?

After some valid arguments from some of the intelligent members of the Paladin community I can see the strength of Accuracy is much higher than I'd previously thought it. However, Nowhere did I say accuracy was a BAD thing.

I called you out for having an idiotic argument (your claim that accuracy is a poor tanking stat) and suddenly I'm the unintelligent one? I'm gonna quote your own words here:

"Instead we got Accuracy. The tanking class. Got Accuracy." - Some Idio--- oh wait, this is you I'm quoting.

The statement here makes it very clear that you consider accuracy to be an entirely unsuitable stat for the purposes of tanking. You even separated it from the rest of your post for emphasis. Again, you clearly consider Accuracy to be a bad thing (which, again, points to your ignorance). So, no, you're contradicting yourself again in an attempt to not look stupid for saying something stupid.

Your argument is incredibly flawed and lacks to even acknowledge what the Paladin Lodestone description is.

Please specify where the hell I mentioned the Paladin's lodestone description, at all, in either of my posts? Claiming my argument is flawed does not make it so, particularly when you immediately after bring in something which I did not mention at all.

"The paladin job sacrifices maximum HP, but this is compensated by way of greatly enhanced defense as well as the ability to cast healing magic. Valiant by nature, a paladin can shield his comrades from blows, making him the unyielding rock upon which a party’s defense is built."
Being the FIERCEST FIGHTER on the field sounds quite a bit like damage dealing. Being an Unyielding rock upon which a party's defense is built sounds quite a bit like tanking.

Again, your incoherent rambling does not qualify as an argument. It does not matter what the phrase "fiercest fighter" sounds like to you. The Warrior is STATED to have the highest HP value in the game, as well as to "thrive on the enmity of it's foes". It is directly and clearly stated in the Warrior class description that the Warrior uses enmity as a tool to perform it's job, as well as boasting the highest HP (gee, I wonder what role in the game would need tons of HP and enmity?). Your pedantic interpretations are worthless here: your claim that the Warrior is a "damage dealer first, tank second" are entirely wrong, and (surprise) laughably misinformed.

My entire rant is about all of the tank Itemization on Warrior, when it belongs on the -tank- class.
I didn't miss the part where Three out of Five the abilities unlocked on warrior are Tank Abilities, and it makes total sense for an OFFTANK to gain access to these, considering SE's "Vision" laid out in this thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...764#post449764 It's intended for the warrior to be able to "Throw the attacks back at the boss"(To deal damage) or take a few hits. Paladin is clearly the one envisioned to be the tank. Do I need to link anything else to prove this?

If you're not going to contribute anything to the conversation, or say anything remotely intelligent i'd suggest you go to the general forums to spend your days.

First off, to reiterate (since it's easy to forget why I consider this topic a waste of space in the first place), accuracy is one of the best stats on the Paladin Relic. Period. The Paladin Relic is arguably the best itemized relic of the lot, not that this means anything to you since you clearly do not understand stats or itemization.

Second, just because you *think* the Warrior should be an "offtank" does not make it reality (Oh, are you backpedaling from claiming the Warrior is primarily a DD, now?). The Warrior has all the tools and a clear design intent for versatility when it comes to both tanking and DD (and is , at the moment, more of a Tank than a DD both by design and in practical implementation). My posts are plenty constructive and intelligent - you're just clearly lashing out at me for calling you out on your profound, laughable ignorance.

Don't worry, though. I'll avoid hurting your feelings from here on out. <3

[Judge_Xero]

People who don't understand stats and how they effect DPS are the ones who dismiss PLD's ability to DPS.

Most PLD are shitty at keeping combo on cooldown because they don't undestand game mechanics so they don't bother with the combo's out of fast > flat phalanx>SW. Raising STR 1STR=.8dmg 1MND=.7dmg
I can wear HDL gloves for 45enmity or 4.5% enmity on every action, or tripple STR gloves 50STR(+5acc)=>40dmg to every WS I perform.

My base fast blade on chimera is avg 18dmg in full enmity gear BUT my base dmg with the glove swap is 58DMG

5.5x total enmity on flat blade in combo:
18(5.5) = 99 + (4.5% enmity on gloves) = 103.5 total enmity on flat blade with HDL gloves
58(5.5) = 319 total enmity with STR gloves

As far as curtana goes the MP drain and SW bonus dmg is SUBSTANTIAL not to mention you also get the BIS shield. To me this is the single best relic of the group in total performance gains by the job over its BiS alternative including company gear.

Glad someone already posted some numbers on this
My favourite part this stuff TBH.

So Enmity VS STR (or MND) for PLD is:

1 ENM ='s 0.1% of Damage
1 STR ='s 0.8 extra Damage (up to probably 340 STR, similar to DD classes other than BRD)(also depending on weapon)
MND ='s 0.7 extra Damage (up to probably 310 MND, similar to other secondary stats)

So basically, the only time ENM>STR or MND is Either on Provoke/Flash/Rampart where damage is not included.
The only time 1 ENM ='s 1 STR or 1 MND is around a 700-800 Damage hit.

With a Quick calculation then, with a STR/MND build (bonus stats being divided into STR and MND as well) up to cap,
you can increase your WS Damage output by 50% on PLD, thus increasing enmity by 50% on average.
(Flat Blade Combo can be up to 400%)

Going with strictly ENM, between 300-400, that's an increase of 30-40% of low damage output.
Roughly 20% overall

So STR + MND ='s more damage and more Enmity Generation

It'd be dabateable if an Enmity Belt for PLD is even worth it over Double HP.

[GreyJorildyn]

Glad someone already posted some numbers on this
My favourite part this stuff TBH.

So Enmity VS STR (or MND) for PLD is:

1 ENM ='s 0.1% of Damage
1 STR ='s 0.8 extra Damage (up to probably 340 STR, similar to DD classes other than BRD)(also depending on weapon)
MND ='s 0.7 extra Damage (up to probably 310 MND, similar to other secondary stats)

So basically, the only time ENM>STR or MND is Either on Provoke/Flash/Rampart where damage is not included.
The only time 1 ENM ='s 1 STR or 1 MND is around a 700-800 Damage hit.

With a Quick calculation then, with a STR/MND build (bonus stats being divided into STR and MND as well) up to cap,
you can increase your WS Damage output by 50% on PLD, thus increasing enmity by 50% on average.
(Flat Blade Combo can be up to 400%)

Going with strictly ENM, between 300-400, that's an increase of 30-40% of low damage output.
Roughly 20% overall

So STR + MND ='s more damage and more Enmity Generation

It'd be dabateable if an Enmity Belt for PLD is even worth it over Double HP.

This post is I dun even know...

You're not really considering the full extent of Enmity adding base percentage. For every hundred damage you add, each +10 enmity you add is acting as if 1 additional damage is done. When you're talking stacking enmity to like +200, then it's add 20% to all actions AND 20% to all damage done. Unfortunately you see faster gains in enmity on higher level mobs adding straight enmity bonus in bulk rather than attempting to reach stat caps, thus why HDL is better gear when running with players who zerg bosses down. What you've neglected to realize, or perhaps haven't experienced yet, is that your damage output is utter crap compared to everyone else on high level mobs. Tanks cannot rely on enmity-through-damage as they might be able to in XP parties (wouldn't know, this is before my time anyway).

Now if you're playing this game with PUGs or average players, different story I guess. You probably won't need as much enmity to keep hate against average geared BLMs compared to high-end geared BLMs. As such, you can't say adding damage is better than enmity because in actuality as players move towards the higher-end of the game (natural tendency) in gear and skill, enmity bonus on tanks is actually king.