Concerns about Content Finder, Drops, and Difficulty Settings for EG.

[Amsai]

Hello everyone!

The way I see it is this:

Problem: If hard mode drops something different than easy mode, then hard mode will be considered 'needed' in order to get that item. This would negate the benefit of having multiple modes as you would 'eventually' 'need' to do hard mode to get that different item.

Problem: If hard mode only drops a slightly better version of something than easy mode (+1 style stats or a bit more), then only a select few may be willing to do the 'hard' mode version to get that item. This means creating content for only a small percentage of the population, which is not something I can see them focusing on. So I do not see this as likely or wise. Plus it will be messy inventory wise to have multiple versions of same thing.

Problem: If hard mode drops significantly better version of something than easy mode (pretend +3 exists and imagine how much better that would be). Then this runs the risk of either making easy mode drop not worth or hard mode drop so powerful that it negates the need for crafting and melding. Both can lead to balance issues and make a sizeable population very unhappy (all in the name of having a 'hard' mode).


Perhaps what is needed regarding hard mode versus easy mode versus extreme mode is a completely different reward system independent of what is dropped. Some would argue that action is its own reward, but Garuda would argue otherwise. So what 'useful' but 'unrequired' drop can come from 'hard mode' that those who only compete in 'easy' mode won't mind, but still retain a benefit to doing hard mode?

To me, one obvious/useful answer is this:
Easy Mode: Drops the nice looking equipment. (This makes everyone happy).
Hard Mode: Drops Rare/Exotic materia. (Good for melders and dedicated players who want to tweak their stats)
Extreme Mode: Drops Exotic Matter. (Can be used to meld materia to specific unmeldable gear).

So a simple example (please don't interpret the values as realistic, only example random numbers):
Adventurer fights hard and eventually wins easy mode and is finally rewarded:
Easy mode drops: Cookiee Monster Cudgel (+10 INT, +20 Attack Magic)

A casual adventurer is happy and goes on her merry way. But another might say: Noo... that fight was too easy, I wish a harder challenge. She goes in and wins 'hard' mode and is rewarded with:
Hard mode drops: Fudge Materia IV (+10 INT, +10 PIE, +10 MND, +10 Magic Accuracy)

She looks at this and is pleased and thinks it would look good on her Lightning Brand. However, she thinks it would look even better on her Cookiee Monster Cudgel, but alas it is unmeldable... unless... She takes on the challenge of Extreme Mode and wins, and is rearded with:
Extreme mode drops: Cookiee Monster Super Materia (Allows melding of any materia to a Cookiee Monster weapon).

She then fuses her Fudge Materia IV to her Cookiee Monster Cudgel and is well pleased with herself.

(Note: I grant SE full rights to create a Cookiee Monster Cudgel and Fudge Materia).

Thank you.

I actually like this idea. This or something like it could strike a good balance.

Not that we even know if this is how it goes down... but a Token Reward is not a punishment for Easy Mode. It's an easy reward obtained for an Easy Mode. I would have assumed you were worried about your own character not earning much for playing on easy mode, but judging from this comment, you must be ready to solo Hard Mode...

Yes, I just mean a victory just for the sake of a victory, Not a loot token. Also I wouldnt say solo, but low man isnt out of the question. Though I would be very happy to play together with friends and family on easymode on nights my LS isnt running content.

But your whole point would alienate hardcore players. DERP.
Are you just high on yourself or something not able to look at the other side of the fence?
I'm sitting here in the middle and you're waaaaay left field buddy. The way you want it, no one would do the hard content. It wouldn't be worth it. Look at Garuda now, the weapons aren't worth the difficulty so -almost- no one tries it anymore. Why? Because it's not worth the trouble!
There should be tiers and those tiers should be noticable AND I SAY NOTICABLE NOT OP AS F**K. If you wanna throw stats out there then do it according to how stats are now, not how you assume stats will be like in 2.0.
And I loooooooooooooove how you preach about how you have this forum to voice your opinion even though no one is telling you that you can't. You have to throw stawman argument after strawman argument, you use go way off topic of what anyone with a disagreeing statement has to say and go to the extremes of what others are saying against your points and you completely ignore valid and strong points against your view because OH you don't wanna look wrong now do you?
I never mentioned if you want this game to succeed, I never brought up why this forum was created, I never said you can't voice your opinion, I never talked about SE's ability to make other games, I never talked about SE's "bombs" or mentioned "bad business", your comment about a culture gap and their "grip on reality" has nothing to do with the topic, no one mentioned 1.0 content that will be redone like Caravans or Behests or Hamlets, and no one asked you what SE makes you do and that's just your last post!


No real difference between normal and hard loot is a S**T idea that will alienate hardcore players and I am damned glad they will never listen to people like you again. This is fact, coming from hardcore players who know what they're talking about because they are hardcore and they know what will keep them from playing.
The fact that you just want good loot without trying hard to get it just shows that you don't want there to be a reason to work hard and you want casual players to be almost just as good as hardcore players which just isn't right. Plain and simple. Be rewarded Fairly for your effort. Is that so much to ask that you f***ing see that point?

Seems like Ive really hit a nerve with you. Most of what you said seems like your getting a bit angry (?) with me. I have absolutely no animosity towards you.

I wouldnt want it so bad that people wouldnt want to do hardmode, as I said there is a balance that can be reached. Im glad you seem to not want the gear to be OP. Again SE just needs to appoach it cautiously.

I certainly dont feel wrong. I feel just as sure of my view point as the sun will rise tomorrow. I also doubt I look wrong to most casuals. So I feel like im in no jeopardy of looking wrong. If you think thats why I went a bit off topic, it has more to do with letting folks know where I am coming from. Most of which I think are quite relevant to the situation, it all ties in.

Again I am trying to look out for this game. This isnt about me or you. We do want to go out and do the hard content, me mostly for the challenge and fun. But from a business standpoint we need to cater to the casuals, so this game can get big. The bigger the population from the beginning, the better the longevity and content in the game.

I do see where you are coming from, I really do. Unfortunately, a certain amount of sacrifice is honestly necessary. However, this doesnt mean I think hardcore players should be forgotten. There are plenty of ways to reward the hardcore: Relic weapons and armor, achievements and items that come with them, Hard mode gear that is better than normal gear, bragging rights, competition (like Hard mode events showing things like best time), Vanity gear and other cosmetic items, Guild Housing, Guild Airships, Summoning Primals, rights/resources through PvP, and how about just doing hard content for the challenge?

Anyways, I am trying to be reasonable. But I feel that if you still cant see my point of view (even if its just a little bit), then we shall have to agree to disagree. This will likely be my last response to you. May 2.0 be everything you deserve.

[Skies]

Asiaine has the best idea her. Actually i've been watching Extra Credit and they did mention something akin to this in an article about "Power Creep", about how 'perpetual' games like MMOs have later content start eclipsing older content.

One thing that was mentione was 'incomparables', rewards are given that cannot be directly compared to eachother. For example, can you directly compare the value of Shield Bash and Second Wind as abilities? We can discuss this forever but you cannot simply look at the numbers in the ability and say one is better than the other. Same way, can you directly compare the Needle of the Luminary and the Gae Bolg? Incomparables.

Which is in fact a pretty neat solution for multiple difficulty settings and their rewards. Any one content COULD have Easy/Normal/Hard, and each of those difficulties have their own unique rewards, which cannot be compared to eachother. So theoretically everyone would have incentive to run every difficulty.

Of course, that has very, very high development cost. Which is definitely not something that the players care about, but...

[AmyNeudaiz]

Seems like Ive really hit a nerve with you. Most of what you said seems like your getting a bit angry (?) with me. I have absolutely no animosity towards you.

I wouldnt want it so bad that people wouldnt want to do hardmode, as I said there is a balance that can be reached. Im glad you seem to not want the gear to be OP. Again SE just needs to appoach it cautiously.

I certainly dont feel wrong. I feel just as sure of my view point as the sun will rise tomorrow. I also doubt I look wrong to most casuals. So I feel like im in no jeopardy of looking wrong. If you think thats why I went a bit off topic, it has more to do with letting folks know where I am coming from. Most of which I think are quite relevant to the situation, it all ties in.

Again I am trying to look out for this game. This isnt about me or you. We do want to go out and do the hard content, me mostly for the challenge and fun. But from a business standpoint we need to cater to the casuals, so this game can get big. The bigger the population from the beginning, the better the longevity and content in the game.

I do see where you are coming from, I really do. Unfortunately, a certain amount of sacrifice is honestly necessary. However, this doesnt mean I think hardcore players should be forgotten. There are plenty of ways to reward the hardcore: Relic weapons and armor, achievements and items that come with them, Hard mode gear that is better than normal gear, bragging rights, competition (like Hard mode events showing things like best time), Vanity gear and other cosmetic items, Guild Housing, Guild Airships, Summoning Primals, rights/resources through PvP, and how about just doing hard content for the challenge?

Anyways, I am trying to be reasonable. But I feel that if you still cant see my point of view (even if its just a little bit), then we shall have to agree to disagree. This will likely be my last response to you. May 2.0 be everything you deserve.

You hit a nerve with your pathetic debating tactics. You don't understand what people like me are (mostly) asking for and you take our examples to the extreme and you ignore points. It is extremely frustrating when someone acts this way.
We want there to be a clear and defined difference between normal and hard content not just a +1 version of the same thing and this is what we're getting. Why anyone would want to change it just so people who put no effort into the game can get it is beyond me.
Hardcore players are the heart of MMO's and if they catered to casuals too much, like what you're asking for in your Original Post, this game won't have a hardcore base and look at recent MMO's that cater so much to casuals to the point that it's the only base they have *COUGH*SWTOR*COUGH*.
So to your original argument, no. You are wrong. There should be a defined difference between casual and hardcore and if you don't put effort you don't deserve the best shiny or even close to it.

[Duelle]

Which is in fact a pretty neat solution for multiple difficulty settings and their rewards. Any one content COULD have Easy/Normal/Hard, and each of those difficulties have their own unique rewards, which cannot be compared to eachother. So theoretically everyone would have incentive to run every difficulty.

You mean something along the lines of the loot for this boss, where certain drops can only be seen if you kill it in hard mode.

[drivendawn]

Well i think that if you make hard mode gear to OP when normal mode is just a step down in difficulty it will drive away casual players. And lets face it theres alot more of those out there. Im not sayin to make it basicly the same just to be careful to not alienate anyone. I think everyone on this thread wants that but are misunderstanding one another on both sides.

[Firon]

If you cant beat it on hard that's your own fault just accept your NQ gears and be happy with it.

[drivendawn]

Elitest alert normal mode or not, still 8 man content so needs better than NQ.

[Skies]

You mean something along the lines of the loot for this boss, where certain drops can only be seen if you kill it in hard mode.

More or less. But take it one step further. The Easy drops don't drop on Hard mode! So there's still reason to do Easy mode (also prolongs the life of content).

Furthermore, let's invent a random content as example, say an attack in an Imperial prision, you can get a few drops: Magitek Gloves (Easy Mode drop), Magitek Armor (Normal Mode drop) and the infamous Gunhalberd (Hard Mode drop).

Say Magitek Gloves gives +20 ATK and +10 Crit Rate with Set Bonus(3): +200 HP, +20 ATK.
And Magitek Armor has +5 VIT, +30 Evasion and Set Bonus(3): +5 VIT, +10 STR
And the Gunhalberd has 42 DPS, +20 STR, +50 Crit Power and +20 Crit Rate
The trick? Three drops, the weaker drops have a set bonus, all three of them are part of the set!

So there's reason to do the Easy Mode, getting not just a weaker drop (that cannot be directly compared with the other drops of that instance, hands slot is not the body slot is not the main hand slot, but is theoretically inferior to other high-end gloves), but also a weaker drop that WILL become powerful once coupled with the Hard Mode drop.

That would definitely be the best sort of loot spreadout for the different difficulties.

Now pretend that the numbers I used somehow express what my words said, because i'm bad with numbers on this game.

[Duelle]

More or less. But take it one step further. The Easy drops don't drop on Hard mode! So there's still reason to do Easy mode (also prolongs the life of content).

Well, the way that boss was designed is that most guilds starting on it would go with method A of killing it (taking advantage of the heart phases to deal as much damage as possible and circumvent Timpanic Trantrums). Guilds with less DPS would obviously have to eat the tantrums and learn how to heal through them. That would be Normal Mode.

Hard Mode is when you destroy the heart, which requires a certain DPS level that your raid most likely achieved after gearing up with multiple boss kills in normal mode. Now mind, these are boss kills that you get only once per week, and the boss can drop up to two items from the loot pool on normal and one item from the hard mode loot pool. The content does get to be relevant for a while between the fact that you have to gear 10/25 people as well as the fact that you're getting loot once per week.

let's invent a random content as example, say an attack in an Imperial prision, you can get a few drops: Magitek Gloves (Easy Mode drop), Magitek Armor (Normal Mode drop) and the infamous Gunhalberd (Hard Mode drop).

Say Magitek Gloves gives +20 ATK and +10 Crit Rate with Set Bonus(3): +200 HP, +20 ATK.
And Magitek Armor has +5 VIT, +30 Evasion and Set Bonus(3): +5 VIT, +10 STR
And the Gunhalberd has 42 DPS, +20 STR, +50 Crit Power and +20 Crit Rate
The trick? Three drops, the weaker drops have a set bonus, all three of them are part of the set!

So there's reason to do the Easy Mode, getting not just a weaker drop (that cannot be directly compared with the other drops of that instance, hands slot is not the body slot is not the main hand slot, but is theoretically inferior to other high-end gloves), but also a weaker drop that WILL become powerful once coupled with the Hard Mode drop.

I get what you're aiming to do with this, but I disagree. It's one thing for a person to aspire for clearing hard modes on their own. It's another to pseudo force them into it, which is what you're suggesting.

[Skies]

Hrm... The intent was different, actually, than pseudo-forcing them to do hard.
The intent was that the Easy drop should still be a worthwhile piece for the guy going after the Hard drop, not that you should feel at all forced to go for the Hard mode.

Have you any other ideas of how to implement that concept (all pieces are worth getting) that doesn't feels like it's forcing you go to the hardest mode anyway?