1UP.com's new interview with Yoshida regarding 2.0

[Viritess]

I'd take the Star Fox approach and determine the paths by the chosen difficulty of the instance. Normal takes you down a certain path with its own bosses. Hard takes you down a different path with its own bosses. Could also implement encounters where the raid has to split up (eg: Thorim where half the raid had to stay in the arena and fight off mobs while the other half worked its way to Thorim to knock him into the arena).

Why have different routes if all 24 are going to go the same way? sounds like a very fancy difficulty selection window then instead of having 3 teams part ways, rejoin eachother etc. kind of like what party members do in nearly every FF to date (cept perhaps 11.)

Could be as simple as Feugen and Stalagg (mobs punt the tanks between themselves, though this requires taunt mechanics that PLD and WAR do not have) or a little more complex like the now-known "council" style fights. Could also have something like Dreadscale and Acidmaw, where the bosses were designed in a way that the mechanics of one could help the raid against the other.
The reason raids are designed for two tanks (three in freak ocurrences, or the rare fight where you need a ranged tank) is to keep the raid instance as a whole within workable parameters. You can't have a single fight requiring 4 tanks when there's say six more fights where the extra tanks are dead weight.

I think we'd disagree here in that i'm looking at the possability of them doing something different. where as what your describing i've seen many many times before. The reason those tanks are dead weight in many games is because your locked into a single class. If we presume that the current class change mechanics of FF14 in dungeons sticks. Then there is no dead weight since they could, change class or job.

I disagree here. Keep the competitiveness where it belongs: PvP. Let PvE be about people working together towards a common goal.

PVP is player vs player, in a competetive group vs group dungeon, that is still PVP. Honestly PVP need not always be only about smashing eachother's face in over and over. Maybe its because i've played the battle ground and arena scene in so many titles, it would be interesting to see some PVP options apart from "Vs." Face smashing.

Sorry for the quotations back, but since you put the effort to discuss my points i thought i'd do the same ^^

[Duelle]

Why have different routes if all 24 are going to go the same way? sounds like a very fancy difficulty selection window then instead of having 3 teams part ways, rejoin eachother etc. kind of like what party members do in nearly every FF to date (cept perhaps 11.)

I don't consider it to be feasible dungeon design in an MMORPG, especially considering that players have a very bad tendency to pick the "efficient" route. It was neat in FFVI where you had to split your characters into three parties to climb Kefka's Tower, but it wouldn't work in an MMO with different classes lacking that LCD that allowed it to work in VI.

I think we'd disagree here in that i'm looking at the possability of them doing something different. where as what your describing i've seen many many times before. The reason those tanks are dead weight in many games is because your locked into a single class.

Which is something I hope they do with dungeons so that encounters can be balanced around reasoinable parameters instead of parameters that would force players into having multiple jobs just for one dungeon. I'll always favor design that will encourage people to play the jobs they like at all times (or as much as possible). Allowing job/class swaps in any way goes against that.

Sorry for the quotations back, but since you put the effort to discuss my points i thought i'd do the same ^^

No need to apologize. Makes the discussion easier when the points in question are there for quick referral.

[Viritess]

I don't consider it to be feasible dungeon design in an MMORPG, especially considering that players have a very bad tendency to pick the "efficient" route. It was neat in FFVI where you had to split your characters into three parties to climb Kefka's Tower, but it wouldn't work in an MMO with different classes lacking that LCD that allowed it to work in VI.

I don't think theres is anything that will avoid an "efficient" route mentality. But also "if" we belive that more energy should be put into avoiding the posibility of such a route we ultimately end up with Boss hallways. There is always the option of when splitting up a group that they have limited choice in which route they can take.

I'm not too sure we'll share common ground on this point. But if we're to take Yoshi-P's translated point at value, we will already be split into 3 parties.

Myself i do belive it to be feasable to have such a dungeon in an MMO. Since teamwork should be one of the main parts of an MMO. But i'll digress on this point.

Which is something I hope they do with dungeons so that encounters can be balanced around reasoinable parameters instead of parameters that would force players into having multiple jobs just for one dungeon. I'll always favor design that will encourage people to play the jobs they like at all times (or as much as possible). Allowing job/class swaps in any way goes against that.

In some ways i agree with your responce. But i'd also like to see the armory system put to some good use. Either way there are good and bad points to both. In some ways by withholding the ability to change a bit on the fly you may also disallow people from using the class they really like for the entire dungeon, instead of parts of it due to "needs".

As far as balance if you start with an expectation of anything possibly being brought i think you can balance around it somewhat. But i can also understand the concerns from one boss to another.

No need to apologize. Makes the discussion easier when the points in question are there for quick referral.

I'm glad to have a real enjoyable discussion about different thoughts on systems. Thank you ^^

[Duelle]

I don't think theres is anything that will avoid an "efficient" route mentality.

It's less about avoiding it and more about ensuring it has minimal to non-existent effects on gameplay. It's also about defining what should be efficient. For me it's ensuring your comp is balanced between necessary buffs, debuffs and utility. In this game it's been basically stacking WARs, WHMs, BLMs and having a BRD for refresh.

In some ways i agree with your responce. But i'd also like to see the armory system put to some good use. Either way there are good and bad points to both. In some ways by withholding the ability to change a bit on the fly you may also disallow people from using the class they really like for the entire dungeon, instead of parts of it due to "needs".

This depends on how the jobs are balanced at the end of the day. If the DPS jobs are interchangeable, then the raid loses nothing by not having X job over y job. Same thing with tanks and healers. Still, it would lead to situations where you might like being MNK but your group makes you change to BRD or RNG or BLM for some of the encounters. That's the sort of thing I abhor and would never want to see in a raid, much less be subjected to.

[Hyrist]

I don't consider it to be feasible dungeon design in an MMORPG, especially considering that players have a very bad tendency to pick the "efficient" route. It was neat in FFVI where you had to split your characters into three parties to climb Kefka's Tower, but it wouldn't work in an MMO with different classes lacking that LCD that allowed it to work in VI.

Actually, as a counterpoint - that would be the perfect kind of content to empasise the 'Class' aspect of the current system. More flexiable classes could split into groups to advance through a multi-section dungeon. It would create a type of dynamic teamwork that's really been lacking in many MMO's which has basically reduced itself to: "Go to this boss/chest get key item, go to next." The dungeons and instances lack any real unique feel to them

The only crux on this matter really is the time limit effecting loot. If they were to make a 'point total' sytem in which the highest tier drop-rate could be achieved without the timely clear bonus, then the system would be perfect. But that's a different issue.

As far as saying FFVI dungeons are a bad thing to implement into an MMO, I can't disagree stronger. In fact, I was about to make a thread suggesting that they do this kind of 24 man dungeon.

[Duelle]

Actually, as a counterpoint - that would be the perfect kind of content to empasise the 'Class' aspect of the current system. More flexiable classes could split into groups to advance through a multi-section dungeon.

Again, assuming my wish of people being locked into their jobs upon entry so that this community can actually learn to work with what they have becomes true, that's not really going to fly.

The only crux on this matter really is the time limit effecting loot. If they were to make a 'point total' sytem in which the highest tier drop-rate could be achieved without the timely clear bonus, then the system would be perfect. But that's a different issue.

This has more to do with loot and dungeon design. I'd hope they'd do away with the silly timers, abolish speed runs altogether while putting in timed events in dungeons where appropriate.

As far as saying FFVI dungeons are a bad thing to implement into an MMO, I can't disagree stronger. In fact, I was about to make a thread suggesting that they do this kind of 24 man dungeon.

My point comes entirely from how parties would split themselves up while still working with a reasonable raid composition. Granted, this entirely falls on class design, ability spread and DPS, which I'd like to see addressed first. You seem to also miss the fact that the Lowest Common Denominator in FFVI was the fact that everyone could learn the same magic, which means that regardless of character you could have someone in charge of heals or have everyone able to heal, buff and so on. And I mean heal/nuke/cast reliably without stat limitations and discrepancies in MP pools.

[Hyrist]

Again, assuming my wish of people being locked into their jobs upon entry so that this community can actually learn to work with what they have becomes true, that's not really going to fly.

That's because your wish is locked into a specific setting. Instead of Job locking, which is too restrictive, IMO. Class lock instead. This, coupled with the idea of being able to have multiple jobs per class eliminates that concern.

This has more to do with loot and dungeon design. I'd hope they'd do away with the silly timers, abolish speed runs altogether while putting in timed events in dungeons where appropriate.

I wouldn't even put it anywhere. Speed Runs should be for timing events in which speed makes sense to the lore/plot of the game and nothing further. Perhaps a timer to prevent from holding up the instance server, but the timer should not have any significance beyond that. - or, as a compromise, have speed runs be one of many factors that cause chest to drop as a point total, as I described earlier.

My point comes entirely from how parties would split themselves up while still working with a reasonable raid composition. Granted, this entirely falls on class design, ability spread and DPS, which I'd like to see addressed first. You seem to also miss the fact that the Lowest Common Denominator in FFVI was the fact that everyone could learn the same magic, which means that regardless of character you could have someone in charge of heals or have everyone able to heal, buff and so on. And I mean heal/nuke/cast reliably without stat limitations and discrepancies in MP pools.

MP pools, magical stats,etc in FFVI were not equal. They could be MADE to be equal, but the lowest common demonimnator in the game - the Esper system which taught magic, altered stats, etc, has a similarity to the class system, which allows us to socket from any class we learned from.

So the class system becomes our lowest common denominator in FFXIV, and my compromise to your Job-lock system makes the entirety of the FFVI style dungeon possible, as you can blur roles for smaller battles. A Paladin from one stage of the fight can become a 'Dark Knight' (or some other job) as the parties merge, or vice versa.

You're also assuming we're wanting a Tank Party, a DD party, and a Mage party, all with their own support focusing on just them. But with classes that can take multiple jobs, that means they can take multiple roles. AND, it might be better for the group as whole to not have such a focused center as the end boss may be multiple tough enemies instead of just one. Put simply - we don't know if such a dungeon would follow the conventions you're referring to.

In the end, a dungeon built like Phoenix Cave/Kefka's Tower might actually be a good shake-up from the norm - something we really need to be honest. And as this is supposed to be some sort of fan-service game, I can't imagine a better dungeon crawl in Final Fantasy. Phoenix Cave and Kefka's Tower are by far the most memorable of them.

[Alerith]

That's because your wish is locked into a specific setting. Instead of Job locking, which is too restrictive, IMO. Class lock instead. This, coupled with the idea of being able to have multiple jobs per class eliminates that concern.

I like this idea. I would be locked into Gladiator, but still have the freedom to choose Paladin or Dark Knight depending on the situation, or Gladiator if I need more cross class skills.

I approve.

[Duelle]

That's because your wish is locked into a specific setting. Instead of Job locking, which is too restrictive, IMO. Class lock instead. This, coupled with the idea of being able to have multiple jobs per class eliminates that concern.

Meh, it eliminates "Duelle, you suck because you like playing PLD more than DRK and don't even carry a DRK set. Our needs should be more important than your in-game enjoyment" entirely, which isn't a bad thing. Take it from someone to who got burned with dual specs in late WotLK/Cataclysm.

I wouldn't even put it anywhere. Speed Runs should be for timing events in which speed makes sense to the lore/plot of the game and nothing further. Perhaps a timer to prevent from holding up the instance server, but the timer should not have any significance beyond that. - or, as a compromise, have speed runs be one of many factors that cause chest to drop as a point total, as I described earlier.

Timers can be implemented in a way that (while relevant) is non-crucial to the lore of the instance, requires you to know the instance and have sufficient DPS/heals to make it through. The reward for the timed run coule be something nice but not something that gives a massive advantage. The timed run then becomes something to aim for and complete with any group comp with relatively the same amount of effort. (ex: Culling of Stratholme).

It's really something that can be applied to lots of dungeon elements, from hostages that need to be rescued to avoiding some event in the instance that would affect the battles past that point or simply just saving someone who would get captured if you arrive too late.

MP pools, magical stats,etc in FFVI were not equal. They could be MADE to be equal, but the lowest common demonimnator in the game - the Esper system which taught magic, altered stats, etc, has a similarity to the class system, which allows us to socket from any class we learned from.

I disagree, because again any character could cover vital spells provided you took the time to teach them the right spells (stat modification through espers naturally came with teaching said spells and were not entirely separate processes). Mash could do healing as well as Edgar could, as well as Gau could as well as Relm could. Not to mention VI had enough jobs with good damage potential to cover that part of the equation with little trouble.

You're also assuming we're wanting a Tank Party, a DD party, and a Mage party, all with their own support focusing on just them. But with classes that can take multiple jobs, that means they can take multiple roles. AND, it might be better for the group as a whole to not have such a focused center as the end boss may be multiple tough enemies instead of just one. Put simply - we don't know if such a dungeon would follow the conventions you're referring to.

XI's group structure is the last thing I would ever want to use. What I'm trying to avoid is player trends developing where people are expected to have multiple classes/jobs geared and leveled because the dungeon and encounter design demands it.

I may not actively RP, but certain aspects of it are still very important to me; looking at my character as being a particular class/job being one such aspect. Hence why I used to constantly say that in FFXI, I looked at my Taru as "Duelle the Red Mage", not "Duelle the taru with RDM at 99, DRK at 90 and having PLD underlevelled". Being able to say "my character is this job" and being able to play as such in the content that matters without social expectations and dungeon/encounter mechanics getting in the way greatly increases enjoyment of the game, believe it or not. It's largely why I support performance equality between jobs over niche gameplay, too.

In the end, a dungeon built like Phoenix Cave/Kefka's Tower might actually be a good shake-up from the norm - something we really need to be honest.

Difference for the sake of being different hasn't let to much good in the MMO genre. That being said, I'm not entirely against having one dungeon that took that approach, but I will still stress class/job balance is very important in making it properly tick without opening the door for shennanigans like class stacking and exclusion of classes/jobs.

I know I'm going to regret this, but...

I am the author.

eh, I think you're brave for stepping forward. Either way, it was a good interview, and perhaps one of the most informative articles of all the stuff that's come out of e3.

[Icecylee]

Meh, it eliminates "Duelle, you suck because you like playing PLD more than DRK and don't even carry a DRK set. Our needs should be more important than your in-game enjoyment" entirely, which isn't a bad thing. Take it from someone to who got burned with dual specs in late WotLK/Cataclysm.

No it doesn't. If the people you're playing with are going to give you crap about the class/job combination you want to play, they'd just give you crap about it before rolling into the dungeon rather than in the middle. The only way around that is to not play with assholes, and instead with friends who don't care how you play as long as you more or less get the job done.

Even in a theoretical world where everything was perfectly balanced, the sort of people that 'force' you to play on a certain job would still be doing it, since without everything being mechanically exactly the same (and then what would be the point of having the illusion of choice?) there would still be certain combinations that were fractionally better and have slightly better synergy than others and they'd leap on it. Or it just suite their play style better and see everything else as inferior.