Thread: 1UP.com's new interview with Yoshida regarding 2.0

Its very good. And some nice Job, Drop and Party info there.

I won't hold Yoshi to it as with anything this far from fruition, but i like the mention of multiple (3) parties for 24 man dungeons instead of just one 24 man group. As this could open up alot of options for Dungeon Mechanics.

- Different routs requiring groups to go multiple directions, meaning its possible to keep a the same content fresher since you might be going a different way often enough.

- Multi boss fights that could require Teams to focus on different targets, and switch among them often.

- Less focus on 1-2 tanks, heals and a Bleep ton of DPS which could help lessen the need for Bosses to consist of tons of HP and 1 hit killing blows that only a tank can survive. Which means Hate, AOE, Enviormental risk can be used even more dynamicaly.

- Some team puzzles stuff added in dungeons where one team may have to do X, which changes a path or puzzle another team does etc

-and possible some team vs team vs team competetive dungeons.

Originally Posted by Viritess

- Different routes requiring groups to go multiple directions, meaning its possible to keep a the same content fresher since you might be going a different way often enough.

I'd take the Star Fox approach and determine the paths by the chosen difficulty of the instance. Normal takes you down a certain path with its own bosses. Hard takes you down a different path with its own bosses. Could also implement encounters where the raid has to split up (eg: Thorim where half the raid had to stay in the arena and fight off mobs while the other half worked its way to Thorim to knock him into the arena).

- Multi boss fights that could require Teams to focus on different targets, and switch among them often.

Could be as simple as Feugen and Stalagg (mobs punt the tanks between themselves, though this requires taunt mechanics that PLD and WAR do not have) or a little more complex like the now-known "council" style fights. Could also have something like Dreadscale and Acidmaw, where the bosses were designed in a way that the mechanics of one could help the raid against the other.

- Less focus on 1-2 tanks, heals and a Bleep ton of DPS which could help lessen the need for Bosses to consist of tons of HP and 1 hit killing blows that only a tank can survive. Which means Hate, AOE, Enviormental risk can be used even more dynamicaly.

The reason raids are designed for two tanks (three in freak ocurrences, or the rare fight where you need a ranged tank) is to keep the raid instance as a whole within workable parameters. You can't have a single fight requiring 4 tanks when there's say six more fights where the extra tanks are dead weight.

- Some team puzzles stuff added in dungeons where one team may have to do X, which changes a path or puzzle another team does etc

I'd love to see SE's take on the Karazhan chess event.

-and possible some team vs team vs team competetive dungeons.

I disagree here. Keep the competitiveness where it belongs: PvP. Let PvE be about people working together towards a common goal.

Originally Posted by Duelle

I'd take the Star Fox approach and determine the paths by the chosen difficulty of the instance. Normal takes you down a certain path with its own bosses. Hard takes you down a different path with its own bosses. Could also implement encounters where the raid has to split up (eg: Thorim where half the raid had to stay in the arena and fight off mobs while the other half worked its way to Thorim to knock him into the arena).

Why have different routes if all 24 are going to go the same way? sounds like a very fancy difficulty selection window then instead of having 3 teams part ways, rejoin eachother etc. kind of like what party members do in nearly every FF to date (cept perhaps 11.)

Could be as simple as Feugen and Stalagg (mobs punt the tanks between themselves, though this requires taunt mechanics that PLD and WAR do not have) or a little more complex like the now-known "council" style fights. Could also have something like Dreadscale and Acidmaw, where the bosses were designed in a way that the mechanics of one could help the raid against the other.
The reason raids are designed for two tanks (three in freak ocurrences, or the rare fight where you need a ranged tank) is to keep the raid instance as a whole within workable parameters. You can't have a single fight requiring 4 tanks when there's say six more fights where the extra tanks are dead weight.

I think we'd disagree here in that i'm looking at the possability of them doing something different. where as what your describing i've seen many many times before. The reason those tanks are dead weight in many games is because your locked into a single class. If we presume that the current class change mechanics of FF14 in dungeons sticks. Then there is no dead weight since they could, change class or job.

I disagree here. Keep the competitiveness where it belongs: PvP. Let PvE be about people working together towards a common goal.

PVP is player vs player, in a competetive group vs group dungeon, that is still PVP. Honestly PVP need not always be only about smashing eachother's face in over and over. Maybe its because i've played the battle ground and arena scene in so many titles, it would be interesting to see some PVP options apart from "Vs." Face smashing.

Sorry for the quotations back, but since you put the effort to discuss my points i thought i'd do the same ^^

Originally Posted by Viritess

Why have different routes if all 24 are going to go the same way? sounds like a very fancy difficulty selection window then instead of having 3 teams part ways, rejoin eachother etc. kind of like what party members do in nearly every FF to date (cept perhaps 11.)

I don't consider it to be feasible dungeon design in an MMORPG, especially considering that players have a very bad tendency to pick the "efficient" route. It was neat in FFVI where you had to split your characters into three parties to climb Kefka's Tower, but it wouldn't work in an MMO with different classes lacking that LCD that allowed it to work in VI.

I think we'd disagree here in that i'm looking at the possability of them doing something different. where as what your describing i've seen many many times before. The reason those tanks are dead weight in many games is because your locked into a single class.

Which is something I hope they do with dungeons so that encounters can be balanced around reasoinable parameters instead of parameters that would force players into having multiple jobs just for one dungeon. I'll always favor design that will encourage people to play the jobs they like at all times (or as much as possible). Allowing job/class swaps in any way goes against that.

Sorry for the quotations back, but since you put the effort to discuss my points i thought i'd do the same ^^

No need to apologize. Makes the discussion easier when the points in question are there for quick referral.

Originally Posted by Duelle

I don't consider it to be feasible dungeon design in an MMORPG, especially considering that players have a very bad tendency to pick the "efficient" route. It was neat in FFVI where you had to split your characters into three parties to climb Kefka's Tower, but it wouldn't work in an MMO with different classes lacking that LCD that allowed it to work in VI.

I don't think theres is anything that will avoid an "efficient" route mentality. But also "if" we belive that more energy should be put into avoiding the posibility of such a route we ultimately end up with Boss hallways. There is always the option of when splitting up a group that they have limited choice in which route they can take.

I'm not too sure we'll share common ground on this point. But if we're to take Yoshi-P's translated point at value, we will already be split into 3 parties.

Myself i do belive it to be feasable to have such a dungeon in an MMO. Since teamwork should be one of the main parts of an MMO. But i'll digress on this point.

Which is something I hope they do with dungeons so that encounters can be balanced around reasoinable parameters instead of parameters that would force players into having multiple jobs just for one dungeon. I'll always favor design that will encourage people to play the jobs they like at all times (or as much as possible). Allowing job/class swaps in any way goes against that.

In some ways i agree with your responce. But i'd also like to see the armory system put to some good use. Either way there are good and bad points to both. In some ways by withholding the ability to change a bit on the fly you may also disallow people from using the class they really like for the entire dungeon, instead of parts of it due to "needs".

As far as balance if you start with an expectation of anything possibly being brought i think you can balance around it somewhat. But i can also understand the concerns from one boss to another.

No need to apologize. Makes the discussion easier when the points in question are there for quick referral.

I'm glad to have a real enjoyable discussion about different thoughts on systems. Thank you ^^