job balancing discussion (1.22a-hotfix)

[Chardrizard]

You could do speedruns with PLD tank before the patch, too. It was greatly inferior then and it's still greatly inferior. Both of your final boss screenshots are well over 22 minutes and not even finished yet while everyone's been farming these instances with WAR tank in 17-19 minutes/run for ages now. It's always been about efficiency. I don't know what you thought you were proving.

They have always been viable and we already proven they are viable before on our all job speedruns. But, people still thinks class stackings are SE's faulty. I just like to remind people everytime they bitch.

Also i am not sure why are trying to pointing out the timer for, it's as simple as proving they are viable and possible. Slower? sure. But if spending 4minutes more means people get to play the job they like. I am all for it. I am not trying to judge you, but maybe you won't be so bitter all the time if you try to play for fun sometimes and still accomplish things, instead of the cookie cutter setup. I apologize though if you happen to actually like the cookie cutter setup.

[Airget]

o_O people are still complaining about the archer adjustment lol? I've been doing leves lving up and I still have yet to notice a difference with the change. People are seriously complaining over nothing and don't even realize the advantage that an ARC/BRD has as a class/job itself.

Let's look at other classes.

PLD. tank with no means of regaining own MP, needs a BRD
WAR, DD/tank depending on role, must stay near enemy to deal dmg
PUG, Single target DD that must stay near taget to deal dmg
DRG, Close range target that deals dmg near enemy
BLM, Heavy Hitting DD that deals damage from afar using MP
WHM, Heals party
BRD, ability to DD, and support party through increasing accuracy, increasing TP gains, refreshing the pty, and the ability to increase HP for a limited amount of time. They also have a wide range of combos that are easy to pull off which is as simple as staying 8 yalms away from the target. They can also deal burst dmg while also using an ability to shed enmity off them.

ARC/BRD offers the following enfeebles that are easily to pull off because of it's simple combo procedures:
Heavy=Decent
Bind=Ok if there is communication
Blind=Good
Bleed=Decent
AOE Stun=Good

Combo Wise they have
Heavy Shot-Leaden Arrow-Wide Volley
Heavy Shot-Quick Nock-Rain of Death
Piercing Arrow-Shadow Bind
Piercing Arrow-Gloom Arrow-Blood Letter

Seriously they have 4 combos, 3 of which are 3 steps, with the recast as
10/30/80 seconds
10/180/30 seconds
20/40 seconds
20/10/80 seconds

On top of that they also obtain the "Barrage" abilities which pretty much gives them a burst strike with their next Light shot action.

---

So sure maybe BRD isn't top DD but ask yourself, why should it be, it has support abilities to make up for the fact it doesn't grant high numbers. I just don't really understand what all this complaining is about for ARC/BRDs I've been leveling it before and after this udpate and at lv 40 I have yet to see an issue or an underpowered sense from this class. It's been fun to play and while it's a little more work to pull off combos solo I know how much easier it'll be in a group setting.

But ya, I don't know if it's sarcasm but I realllly don't understand what's the big deal about waiting 2 seconds to use Light Shot again lol.

[Raikki]

They have always been viable and we already proven they are viable before on our all job speedruns. But, people still thinks class stackings are SE's faulty. I just like to remind people everytime they bitch.

Also i am not sure why are trying to pointing out the timer for, it's as simple as proving they are viable and possible. Slower? sure. But if spending 4minutes more means people get to play the job they like. I am all for it. I am not trying to judge you, but maybe you won't be so bitter all the time if you try to play for fun sometimes and still accomplish things, instead of the cookie cutter setup. I apologize though if you happen to actually like the cookie cutter setup.

Is this a joke post? It's not SE's fault that using PLD is measurably inferior? Really? Come on now. If I'm "bitter" it's because drop rates are abysmal and content has to be cleared hundreds of times. You'd have to be a fool to deliberately make those hundreds of clears take longer than necessary by needlessly using an inferior group composition.

[Zyph]

Just gonna pop in here and say that after doing Ifrit a few times tonight, the Benediction range increase is goddamn magical.

[Wevlum]

Just gonna pop in here and say that after doing Ifrit a few times tonight, the Benediction range increase is goddamn magical.

I haven't had a chance to test it out yet but is it a really big increase? o.o

[Zyph]

I haven't had a chance to test it out yet but is it a really big increase? o.o

Oh yeah, I have tested it much, but from what I saw it was like x2 Curaga range, it's ridiculous.

[Chardrizard]

Is this a joke post? It's not SE's fault that using PLD is measurably inferior? Really? Come on now. If I'm "bitter" it's because drop rates are abysmal and content has to be cleared hundreds of times. You'd have to be a fool to deliberately make those hundreds of clears take longer than necessary by needlessly using an inferior group composition.

I never said PLD is superior, do they need improvement? yes, for sure. But, i never touched anything on that subject.

So moving on to actually what i was talking about, There is just more than to efficiency when it comes to doing stuff, when you gather a bunch of folks that thinks like you, nobody minds 4min longer, you were talking as if using a PLD or any inferior setup means we suddenly takes 15min longer and waste a potentially another speedrun.

Grinding darklight isn't fun, grinding darklight while playing a class you do not like is even worse, i am just making it less painful and bearable. I hope the concept of playing for fun isn't new to you.

The other day i went MNK to Garuda, we had very very close kills (by that i mean almost 10min kill and almost did not get speedrun) but nobody minded, because people are having fun trying out new stuff.

[Duelle]

But, people still thinks class stackings are SE's faulty. I just like to remind people everytime they bitch.

And I'll have to step in and remind you that class stacking is very much SE's fault, between class/job design, ability and damage spread between jobs, and encounter design and balancing (or lack thereof). Pacing of content has had a hand in it, and of course speed runs never helped. Sure, you don't care because you run with a shell, but many of us PuG things, and it's not all sunshine and rainbows; not to say it should be the prime way of doing content, but it should also not be the uphill battle it currently is.

Game mechanics influence the way the playerbase does things. This is why the community was so self-mutilating in FFXI as far as player choices went, and you insta-sucked if you went against the grain.

As I've mentioned in other threads, class stacking should occur as freak occurrences that generate laughs while making the dungeon run interesting and doable, and a varied and balanced group comp should be the way most if not all groups aim to do content. XIV has a LONG way to go before that becomes a reality.

PS: As far as the mentioning of how long it takes, the deciding factor should be how your DPSers perform. The tank should not be a factor in that equation at all. It shouldn't matter if the tank is a WAR or PLD or SAM or BST or whatever; the result should be the same. If a run takes longer with a PLD and shorter with a WAR, then there's a balance problem and in needs to be resolved.

[DarkB]

I never said PLD is superior, do they need improvement? yes, for sure. But, i never touched anything on that subject.

So moving on to actually what i was talking about, There is just more than to efficiency when it comes to doing stuff, when you gather a bunch of folks that thinks like you, nobody minds 4min longer, you were talking as if using a PLD or any inferior setup means we suddenly takes 15min longer and waste a potentially another speedrun.

Grinding darklight isn't fun, grinding darklight while playing a class you do not like is even worse, i am just making it less painful and bearable. I hope the concept of playing for fun isn't new to you.

The other day i went MNK to Garuda, we had very very close kills (by that i mean almost 10min kill and almost did not get speedrun) but nobody minded, because people are having fun trying out new stuff.

What you say applies for the few initial tries you do things. After 40 runs you kinda get bored annoyed and frustrated from a non efficient party.
You said yourself that farming darklight isnt fun, so explain me how it is more fun to farm it with slower and less efficient party?

For example, take the Ifrit NPC where you trade the lamp. After 200 ifrit you get bored to talk to him 3 times each to get a new lamp. This is called efficiency, why cant they just give you xp and direcly ask if you want another lamp? 1 click , 5 seconds done.

Same goes for jobs, class stacking is SE fault because they seem to not play the game and just listen to people in forums. Again you do things with your friends for fun the first times, thats fine, but after a bit you see that going with 6 blms 1 war 1 whm is 3x times faster than going with other jobs, why on earth would you frustrate yourself, waste time, risk to lose, going with another setup?
Makes no sense.

The more you play the game, the more you repeat the tasks, the more you repeat the content, the less time you wanna spend doing it, so you always try the fastest/more efficient way to do it. Especially cause we all are paying for the game.
I have no fun to waste minutes to speakin to NPCs and do repetitive and boring stuff because they dont have an efficient development team, same thing applies to job balancing and class stacking.

Do 300 ifrits then you'll tell me how boring it is to get a 20 minutes kill when you can kill it in 3 minutes with blms/war.

[Chardrizard]

And I'll have to step in and remind you that class stacking is very much SE's fault, between class/job design, ability and damage spread between jobs, and encounter design and balancing (or lack thereof). Pacing of content has had a hand in it, and of course speed runs never helped. Sure, you don't care because you run with a shell, but many of us PuG things, and it's not all sunshine and rainbows; not to say it should be the prime way of doing content, but it should also not be the uphill battle it currently is.

Game mechanics influence the way the playerbase does things. This is why the community was so self-mutilating in FFXI as far as player choices went, and you insta-sucked if you went against the grain.

As I've mentioned in other threads, class stacking should occur as freak occurrences that generate laughs while making the dungeon run interesting and doable, and a varied and balanced group comp should be the way most if not all groups aim to do content. XIV has a LONG way to go before that becomes a reality.

Do you think FFXIV devs never thought of trying to balance it so hard so every class can participate? every contents is doable with every class. But, people still go with the path of least resistance unless they are forced to. (example Garuda where u need both melee damage and magic damage to win)

When people asked for unique-ness, we have to sacrifice balance. Of course they will try so hard to balance everything but fact is, there are never true balance without pulling gimmicks like proccing colors at abbysea that FFXI pulled and force people to bring other class. No game out there has successfully pulled it off properly.

Why do you think that is? because devs are lazy? Balancing is not like flipping table, it's not just adding number here and there.

Everybody here liked the idea of varies class, who doesn't? but nobody.. let me repeat NOBODY has came up with properly written idea on how to do balance things properly. All they do is cry and cry somemore.

What you say applies for the few initial tries you do things. After 40 runs you kinda get bored annoyed and frustrated from a non efficient party.
You said yourself that farming darklight isnt fun, so explain me how it is more fun to farm it with slower and less efficient party?

For example, take the Ifrit NPC where you trade the lamp. After 200 ifrit you get bored to talk to him 3 times each to get a new lamp. This is called efficiency, why cant they just give you xp and direcly ask if you want another lamp? 1 click , 5 seconds done.

Same goes for jobs, class stacking is SE fault because they seem to not play the game and just listen to people in forums. Again you do things with your friends for fun the first times, thats fine, but after a bit you see that going with 6 blms 1 war 1 whm is 3x times faster than going with other jobs, why on earth would you frustrate yourself, waste time, risk to lose, going with another setup?
Makes no sense.

The more you play the game, the more you repeat the tasks, the more you repeat the content, the less time you wanna spend doing it, so you always try the fastest/more efficient way to do it. Especially cause we all are paying for the game.
I have no fun to waste minutes to speakin to NPCs and do repetitive and boring stuff because they dont have an efficient development team, same thing applies to job balancing and class stacking.

Do 300 ifrits then you'll tell me how boring it is to get a 20 minutes kill when you can kill it in 3 minutes with blms/war.

The way you perceive this is doing setup in non-cookie cutter setup will results in a very ineffecient runs. No that is not the case. It's 2-4mins late in raids. You don't drop one of your arms when you are suddenly 2-4min late. You still get 5chests like everyone else.

Also 20minutes ifrit means you are doing it with noobs.

That is not the setup issue, that the issue with the people you are playing with.