Paladins issues: Parry rate and MP

[Duelle]

These mitigation controls should NOT be seperate.
You can't tell me that I cant parry someones attack WHILE holding a shield AND even have a chance to evade.
Its completely possible to do all of that realisitcly, and dont tell me you cant, because a human can lift a 2000lbs boulder; crazier shit has happened.

Foresight as a transferable skill should not be useless to be honest.

Paladins can elect to use the following skills:

Heavy Swing
Foresight
Brutal Swing
Bloodbath
Skull Sunder
Provoke
Maim
Overpower

Stone
Cure
Aero
Protect
Raise
Stoneskin
Sacred Prism

Now if paladin was allowed to parry, then with foresight they could actually use overpower, which would be nice because it helps grab all of the mobs right away, something small that is making warrior such a good tank right now. (at least to me as a healer)

Well, considering dodge seems to be the same as what would count as a "miss" by the mob, PLD would viably be able to block and parry.

Under ideal conditions, their proc rates would be cumulative so that if your block chance is 25% and and your parry chance is 15% you have a total 40% chance of mitigating incoming blows. At the same time, I would ensure parries are not full mitigation when used with a one-handed sword, but instead what are considered partial parries for MRD/WAR; that is to say, a PLD can parry an attack and mitigate the incoming damage by an amount, but never do a full parry that entirely negates that incoming attack.

PLD having the ability to parry does give some of the gear I've seen floating around some use. At the same time, it would also give us more tools to use while tanking (your mentioning stuff like Overpower and Foresight as additional tanking tools). Of course, this creates an issue in gearing: that being that while block rate can be buffed by +block rate and DEX, there's nothing that would increase parry rate on PLD. My fix for this would be to make parry rate and mitigation scale with STR (as opposed to my usual suggestion, which is make block rate scale with STR instead of DEX).

[Enfarious]

Well, considering dodge seems to be the same as what would count as a "miss" by the mob, PLD would viably be able to block and parry.

Under ideal conditions, their proc rates would be cumulative so that if your block chance is 25% and and your parry chance is 15% you have a total 40% chance of mitigating incoming blows. At the same time, I would ensure parries are not full mitigation when used with a one-handed sword, but instead what are considered partial parries for MRD/WAR; that is to say, a PLD can parry an attack and mitigate the incoming damage by an amount, but never do a full parry that entirely negates that incoming attack.

PLD having the ability to parry does give some of the gear I've seen floating around some use. At the same time, it would also give us more tools to use while tanking (your mentioning stuff like Overpower and Foresight as additional tanking tools). Of course, this creates an issue in gearing: that being that while block rate can be buffed by +block rate and DEX, there's nothing that would increase parry rate on PLD. My fix for this would be to make parry rate and mitigation scale with STR (as opposed to my usual suggestion, which is make block rate scale with STR instead of DEX).

"Miss" is an evasion your right. But it's not going to end up much of a primary for a PLD, the heavy ass gear makes moving quickly a tad difficult.

To say that a one handed weapon can't fully parry a blow doesn't make sense any more than saying that because I've a shield I can't parry at all. Parrying is deflecting the incoming attack it's not the size of the weapon, but rather being able to position it properly to alter the path of the incoming attack. Now the idea of deflecting a g.swd w/ a rapier seems a bit more difficult and certainly shouldn't have a "full" parry rate that matches a g.axe it's alot easier to get the rapier into the position because it's a smaller more agile weapon so "partial" parries should happen more often, but it's still capable of fully deflecting an attack from just about anything.

These are tactics and manuevers that have been being used for centuries, seeing as the real world provided the base model for them look at how they work in the real world everyone. They all go hand in hand, bracing behind a shield so it absorbs the brunt of an attack, knocking another attack slightly off it's mark while sidestepping so that you aren't hit at all and because you aren't trying to absorb the brunt but rather shift where it's headed it does very little damage. Parries work almost perfectly based on the real life model, they just need to be allowed with a shield, like the real life model.

DEX + Block Rate + Parry Rate Materia all rolled onto PLD that could actually parry = worth something.

[Duelle]

To say that a one handed weapon can't fully parry a blow doesn't make sense any more than saying that because I've a shield I can't parry at all. Parrying is deflecting the incoming attack it's not the size of the weapon, but rather being able to position it properly to alter the path of the incoming attack. Now the idea of deflecting a g.swd w/ a rapier seems a bit more difficult and certainly shouldn't have a "full" parry rate that matches a g.axe it's alot easier to get the rapier into the position because it's a smaller more agile weapon so "partial" parries should happen more often, but it's still capable of fully deflecting an attack from just about anything.

This is more for gameplay purposes. If you make parries fully mitigate an attack that gives the developers an excuse to make the parry rate stupidly low or floor it by an insane amount like it was in FFXI. I'd rather the mitigation threshold be something like between 20%-80% of the damage mitigated when parrying.

[Enfarious]

This is more for gameplay purposes. If you make parries fully mitigate an attack that gives the developers an excuse to make the parry rate stupidly low or floor it by an insane amount like it was in FFXI. I'd rather the mitigation threshold be something like between 20%-80% of the damage mitigated when parrying.

That's why I said "partial" parries should happen far more often, "full" parries should be possible but not common, with a larger weapon that can provide more deflection area higher mitigation seems reasonable, but that larger weapon would be slower moving and cause a reduction in rate of parries for the increased mitigation of each.

End of the day, having a shield should not remove parries from anyone, any weapon can be used to deflect an attack, how effective is partly a function of the mass of the weapon, but also being able to position the weapon is a factor. The trade is the same as blocks should be, larger=more mitigation but larger means harder to get up in time so lowered rate.

[Duelle]

That's why I said "partial" parries should happen far more often, "full" parries should be possible but not common, with a larger weapon that can provide more deflection area higher mitigation seems reasonable, but that larger weapon would be slower moving and cause a reduction in rate of parries for the increased mitigation of each.

The possibility of full mitigation is more powerful than you think. That's largely why I'm in favor of parrying only mitigating some of the damage rather than negating it.

End of the day, having a shield should not remove parries from anyone, any weapon can be used to deflect an attack, how effective is partly a function of the mass of the weapon, but also being able to position the weapon is a factor. The trade is the same as blocks should be, larger=more mitigation but larger means harder to get up in time so lowered rate.

I'd rather shields be normalized and avoid the nonsense from FFXI with shield size. What I'd like to see is the devs build on the distinction between PLD/GLA shields and THM/BLM/WHM/CON shields.

[Enfarious]

The possibility of full mitigation is more powerful than you think. That's largely why I'm in favor of parrying only mitigating some of the damage rather than negating it.
I'd rather shields be normalized and avoid the nonsense from FFXI with shield size. What I'd like to see is the devs build on the distinction between PLD/GLA shields and THM/BLM/WHM/CON shields.

That's why I said "partial" parries should happen far more often, "full" parries should be possible but not common, with a larger weapon that can provide more deflection area higher mitigation seems reasonable, but that larger weapon would be slower moving and cause a reduction in rate of parries for the increased mitigation of each.

Seriously, read the whole thing completely. I said exactly what you did.

I think also that what they have with different sized shields providing increased/decreased block rates and decreased/increased damage reduction for smaller/larger shields makes good sense. A smaller shield is less heavy and alot easier to move quickly but the lack of mass means that more of the hit is going to be passed to the wielder, where a 50 lb. tower shield is not moving real fast but it's mass would absorb significantly more of the momentum thus reducing the shock felt by the wielder.

Why make a simpler system that would lead to everyone carrying the exact same shield in the end. What we have now encourages some differences in gearing. Now if you wanted to you could boost your block rate to try to reduce the DoT you take through a hi number of blocks, or you gear to maximize damage reduction through fewer far more potent blocks. Both ways can give the same overall reduction over time but allows people to choose which way to play.

[Duelle]

Seriously, read the whole thing completely. I said exactly what you did.

Not really. You said full parries should still be present in the proposed tanking model for PLD. I am arguing that they should not and parries should just be an additional mitigation-type proc that acts cumulative to block chance, as PLD would already gain plenty from being able to parry in the form of Overpower and Foresight.

Why make a simpler system that would lead to everyone carrying the exact same shield in the end. What we have now encourages some differences in gearing.

You mean aside from that fact that people at the level cap are already all using the same gear for the most part? It would go with the grain rather than against it.

[AceofRains]

Well, considering dodge seems to be the same as what would count as a "miss" by the mob, PLD would viably be able to block and parry.

Under ideal conditions, their proc rates would be cumulative so that if your block chance is 25% and and your parry chance is 15% you have a total 40% chance of mitigating incoming blows. At the same time, I would ensure parries are not full mitigation when used with a one-handed sword, but instead what are considered partial parries for MRD/WAR; that is to say, a PLD can parry an attack and mitigate the incoming damage by an amount, but never do a full parry that entirely negates that incoming attack.

PLD having the ability to parry does give some of the gear I've seen floating around some use. At the same time, it would also give us more tools to use while tanking (your mentioning stuff like Overpower and Foresight as additional tanking tools). Of course, this creates an issue in gearing: that being that while block rate can be buffed by +block rate and DEX, there's nothing that would increase parry rate on PLD. My fix for this would be to make parry rate and mitigation scale with STR (as opposed to my usual suggestion, which is make block rate scale with STR instead of DEX).

I agree, it shouldn't be a full parry, I'm not gonna lie a shield can stifle your aim a little bit (300 reference)
So why not, a partial parry is fair enough, and with enough increase your parry rate you can make it a full parry.