Paladins issues: Parry rate and MP

[Duuude007]

Shield is treated as armor, and at times a blunt weapon, in this game. So if you have one equipped you are still making yourself less agile than if you could dance around the enemy with just a sword or axe or spear.

[Reynhart]

No, Shield is not an armor, cause it doesn't give defense.
And equipinng one doesn't make you "less agile" by reducing your parry rate, it makes you totally lose the ability of parrying.

[Duuude007]

it makes you totally lose the ability of parrying.

Um, that was my point.

[Dzian]

Also, MP isn't an issue if you're using your gear and skills properly. Cover returns a substantial amount of MP based on how much damage you take from any source, and Outmaneuver combined with Divine Veil nets you a fair MP restore off of physical attacks..

cover fails. becuase it forces you to use your af body. without it your screwed. and to be so reliant on a specific piece of gear is incredibly broken imo. what it should do is give you the mp return regardless of body piece and let the enhance cover effect offer an increased duration or something. that way cover remains usefull regardless of what you equip.

outmanouvere is petty cack for mp even divine vieled vs something that hits hard it gives me barely enough mp to get one succor off which in relation to the damage i took to get that mp is bugger all. if it was a full time stance like rampage it'd be a lot better. at least then it be a somewhat continous mp supply rather than just about giving enough mp for 1 spell a minute.

at best a plds current mp puts it on par with a warriors bloodbath and second wind spammage. for survivability

[AceofRains]

These midigation controls should NOT be seperate.
You can't tell me that I cant parry someones attack WHILE holding a shield AND even have a chance to evade.
Its completely possible to do all of that realisitcly, and dont tell me you cant, because a human can lift a 2000lbs boulder; crazier shit has happened.

Foresight as a transferable skill should not be useless to be honest.

Paladins can elect to use the following skills:

Heavy Swing
Foresight
Brutal Swing
Bloodbath
Skull Sunder
Provoke
Maim
Overpower

Stone
Cure
Aero
Protect
Raise
Stoneskin
Sacred Prism

Now if paladin was allowed to parry, then with foresight they could actually use overpower, which would be nice because it helps grab all of the mobs right away, something small that is making warrior such a good tank right now. (at least to me as a healer)
Other than that cure, raise, and stoneskin are what should be taken

As for MP, I've only seen paladins in parties run out too fast. Since they are the initiator the party usually doesn't expect them to rest for MP, and why should they? How about outmaneuver give MP as well? That way it can actually be useful for White Mage

[Duelle]

These mitigation controls should NOT be seperate.
You can't tell me that I cant parry someones attack WHILE holding a shield AND even have a chance to evade.
Its completely possible to do all of that realisitcly, and dont tell me you cant, because a human can lift a 2000lbs boulder; crazier shit has happened.

Foresight as a transferable skill should not be useless to be honest.

Paladins can elect to use the following skills:

Heavy Swing
Foresight
Brutal Swing
Bloodbath
Skull Sunder
Provoke
Maim
Overpower

Stone
Cure
Aero
Protect
Raise
Stoneskin
Sacred Prism

Now if paladin was allowed to parry, then with foresight they could actually use overpower, which would be nice because it helps grab all of the mobs right away, something small that is making warrior such a good tank right now. (at least to me as a healer)

Well, considering dodge seems to be the same as what would count as a "miss" by the mob, PLD would viably be able to block and parry.

Under ideal conditions, their proc rates would be cumulative so that if your block chance is 25% and and your parry chance is 15% you have a total 40% chance of mitigating incoming blows. At the same time, I would ensure parries are not full mitigation when used with a one-handed sword, but instead what are considered partial parries for MRD/WAR; that is to say, a PLD can parry an attack and mitigate the incoming damage by an amount, but never do a full parry that entirely negates that incoming attack.

PLD having the ability to parry does give some of the gear I've seen floating around some use. At the same time, it would also give us more tools to use while tanking (your mentioning stuff like Overpower and Foresight as additional tanking tools). Of course, this creates an issue in gearing: that being that while block rate can be buffed by +block rate and DEX, there's nothing that would increase parry rate on PLD. My fix for this would be to make parry rate and mitigation scale with STR (as opposed to my usual suggestion, which is make block rate scale with STR instead of DEX).

[Enfarious]

Well, considering dodge seems to be the same as what would count as a "miss" by the mob, PLD would viably be able to block and parry.

Under ideal conditions, their proc rates would be cumulative so that if your block chance is 25% and and your parry chance is 15% you have a total 40% chance of mitigating incoming blows. At the same time, I would ensure parries are not full mitigation when used with a one-handed sword, but instead what are considered partial parries for MRD/WAR; that is to say, a PLD can parry an attack and mitigate the incoming damage by an amount, but never do a full parry that entirely negates that incoming attack.

PLD having the ability to parry does give some of the gear I've seen floating around some use. At the same time, it would also give us more tools to use while tanking (your mentioning stuff like Overpower and Foresight as additional tanking tools). Of course, this creates an issue in gearing: that being that while block rate can be buffed by +block rate and DEX, there's nothing that would increase parry rate on PLD. My fix for this would be to make parry rate and mitigation scale with STR (as opposed to my usual suggestion, which is make block rate scale with STR instead of DEX).

"Miss" is an evasion your right. But it's not going to end up much of a primary for a PLD, the heavy ass gear makes moving quickly a tad difficult.

To say that a one handed weapon can't fully parry a blow doesn't make sense any more than saying that because I've a shield I can't parry at all. Parrying is deflecting the incoming attack it's not the size of the weapon, but rather being able to position it properly to alter the path of the incoming attack. Now the idea of deflecting a g.swd w/ a rapier seems a bit more difficult and certainly shouldn't have a "full" parry rate that matches a g.axe it's alot easier to get the rapier into the position because it's a smaller more agile weapon so "partial" parries should happen more often, but it's still capable of fully deflecting an attack from just about anything.

These are tactics and manuevers that have been being used for centuries, seeing as the real world provided the base model for them look at how they work in the real world everyone. They all go hand in hand, bracing behind a shield so it absorbs the brunt of an attack, knocking another attack slightly off it's mark while sidestepping so that you aren't hit at all and because you aren't trying to absorb the brunt but rather shift where it's headed it does very little damage. Parries work almost perfectly based on the real life model, they just need to be allowed with a shield, like the real life model.

DEX + Block Rate + Parry Rate Materia all rolled onto PLD that could actually parry = worth something.

[Duelle]

To say that a one handed weapon can't fully parry a blow doesn't make sense any more than saying that because I've a shield I can't parry at all. Parrying is deflecting the incoming attack it's not the size of the weapon, but rather being able to position it properly to alter the path of the incoming attack. Now the idea of deflecting a g.swd w/ a rapier seems a bit more difficult and certainly shouldn't have a "full" parry rate that matches a g.axe it's alot easier to get the rapier into the position because it's a smaller more agile weapon so "partial" parries should happen more often, but it's still capable of fully deflecting an attack from just about anything.

This is more for gameplay purposes. If you make parries fully mitigate an attack that gives the developers an excuse to make the parry rate stupidly low or floor it by an insane amount like it was in FFXI. I'd rather the mitigation threshold be something like between 20%-80% of the damage mitigated when parrying.

[AceofRains]

Well, considering dodge seems to be the same as what would count as a "miss" by the mob, PLD would viably be able to block and parry.

Under ideal conditions, their proc rates would be cumulative so that if your block chance is 25% and and your parry chance is 15% you have a total 40% chance of mitigating incoming blows. At the same time, I would ensure parries are not full mitigation when used with a one-handed sword, but instead what are considered partial parries for MRD/WAR; that is to say, a PLD can parry an attack and mitigate the incoming damage by an amount, but never do a full parry that entirely negates that incoming attack.

PLD having the ability to parry does give some of the gear I've seen floating around some use. At the same time, it would also give us more tools to use while tanking (your mentioning stuff like Overpower and Foresight as additional tanking tools). Of course, this creates an issue in gearing: that being that while block rate can be buffed by +block rate and DEX, there's nothing that would increase parry rate on PLD. My fix for this would be to make parry rate and mitigation scale with STR (as opposed to my usual suggestion, which is make block rate scale with STR instead of DEX).

I agree, it shouldn't be a full parry, I'm not gonna lie a shield can stifle your aim a little bit (300 reference)
So why not, a partial parry is fair enough, and with enough increase your parry rate you can make it a full parry.

[1clou]

I agree with a lot of you saying that parry should be a viable trait that is usable for Gld/Pld even if it is only a partial parry. Like a fair few of you said Block and Parry for dmg mitigation would significantly improve or rather make Pld much more viable as a meat shield to take the brunt of the attacks in a combative situation. But mp is still an issue since outmaneuver doesn't give very great mp return, and cover is nice for mp gain, but its not very versatile with a fair bit of the End game content atm; both raids stick out to me like a sore thumb. The Primals and HNM are definitely viable options to use cover for mp return, but the raids are very limiting that way.

Outmaneuver with mp refresh ability(even if minute)+mp return via incoming attacks would make it viable as a stand alone mp return to keep Pld's mp pool up for longevity purposes/sustainability.