Trends in content types and faux difficulty

[Sol_Aureus]

Of course its about loot. No one is forcing anyone to spam content, if you want it to remain fresh then limit how much you do it. The only reason anyone spams it is because they want the loot, and the loot does not drop easily. And they will keep spamming it until they get loot, which can take god knows how many runs, and so they necessarily end up tired, bored, and frustrated. As you said yourself in the OP, you want effort and skill to be rewarded, presumably with loot. So yes, loot is at the heart of the discussion. You want loot, for if you didnt want loot this thread would not exist at all. You wouldn't care. Your suggestion for non-spammable content is a necessary compromise for increasing loot drop rates...that way you are not asking something for nothing. The entire thread, as well as the OP, pivots around this whole "crappy drop rate" thing. I daresay it is about "give me loot". To be fair, you tried to present a compromise, but at the end of the day what you're really after is some form of reward, ie loot. In your case, you'd rather run a dungeon every few days and have a high chance of loot, than spam it to death and have a low chance of loot. Course you dont have to spam it to death, making this thread rather irrelevant, but you will precisely because its more about the reward and not the content.

Anyway, I call it as a see it. Its not a thread derailment at all, especially when you were talking about rewarding effort and skill, rather than a luck-based system. If that is not a veiled cry for loot, then nothing is. And since you were addressing effort and skill as a basis for these proposed changes, I had to call you out on that. The argument is flawed precisely because effort and skill is not the name of the game at all. Now if these dungeons were challenging, and took a long time to do successfully, I could definitely agree with you. If content wasnt exploited at every turn, and ppl didnt abuse broken mechanics as common community practice, I could definitely agree with you. As it stands, you really just want an easier time of collecting loot. At least admit it. If you think I can't prove it I definitely can. If this was about spammable content, then change lockout period without significantly altering the drop rates. There. Now you can't spam it and won't get bored. Owait you dont want it that way? Why not? Ah yes, dat loot.

Yes, loot is a part of the discussion, but not my driving force behind posting this. I'm not butthurt because I don't have full sets of everything forever and that loot isn't handed to me. I don't want loot handed to me. I want to work for it. But there's the key: I want to work for it and be rewarded for effort. It's incredibly frustrating when my linkshell has run AV/CC speed runs well over 200 times and we have seen a grand total of 0 bodies drop, yet some random pickup group gets it on their 3rd try. When I see a piece of gear that's hard to get, I want to think to myself "damn, that guy must have put in a lot of time doing vale for that!" as opposed to "random person got lucky with a PUG." Most of the darklight gear doesn't have much of an impact to me because it's mostly based upon luck.

I don't want an easier time of collecting loot. I really, really don't. The last thing I want is for everything to be handed to the players. I want challenge and difficulty, and to be rewarded for overcoming said challenge. I want the rewards to be mostly based upon overcoming that challenge with a bit of luck-based factors thrown in, not for the rewards to be mostly dependent upon mindlessly running a dungeon that has become super stale because you have to run it hundreds of times beating yourself against the random number generator, which there is very little challenge associated with.

And actually, if it's between having the lockout period and the drop rates kept the same or keeping it spamable and keeping the drop rates the same, I'd much rather have the lockout period. At least that way I can enjoy the dungeon and it doesn't become super stale.

But the reason for my wanting there to be an increase in the drop rates is that right now they're so abysmally low that if there WERE a lockout, it's still mostly based upon luck. By increasing the drop rates and adding a lockout timer, it makes it so the dungeons don't get stale quickly and that your group can see viable progress every win. Maybe one piece of darklight every time you win on average. That's not a ridiculously fast rate of getting Darklight, but it's high enough of a drop rate that players don't get discouraged that running the dungeons is pointless because it's all random.

[Lux_Rayna]

Yes, loot is a part of the discussion, but not my driving force behind posting this. I'm not butthurt because I don't have full sets of everything forever and that loot isn't handed to me. I don't want loot handed to me. I want to work for it. But there's the key: I want to work for it and be rewarded for effort. It's incredibly frustrating when my linkshell has run AV/CC speed runs well over 200 times and we have seen a grand total of 0 bodies drop, yet some random pickup group gets it on their 3rd try. When I see a piece of gear that's hard to get, I want to think to myself "damn, that guy must have put in a lot of time doing vale for that!" as opposed to "random person got lucky with a PUG." Most of the darklight gear doesn't have much of an impact to me because it's mostly based upon luck.

I don't want an easier time of collecting loot. I really, really don't. The last thing I want is for everything to be handed to the players. I want challenge and difficulty, and to be rewarded for overcoming said challenge. I want the rewards to be mostly based upon overcoming that challenge with a bit of luck-based factors thrown in, not for the rewards to be mostly dependent upon mindlessly running a dungeon that has become super stale because you have to run it hundreds of times beating yourself against the random number generator, which there is very little challenge associated with.

And actually, if it's between having the lockout period and the drop rates kept the same or keeping it spamable and keeping the drop rates the same, I'd much rather have the lockout period. At least that way I can enjoy the dungeon and it doesn't become super stale.

But the reason for my wanting there to be an increase in the drop rates is that right now they're so abysmally low that if there WERE a lockout, it's still mostly based upon luck. By increasing the drop rates and adding a lockout timer, it makes it so the dungeons don't get stale quickly and that your group can see viable progress every win. Maybe one piece of darklight every time you win on average. That's not a ridiculously fast rate of getting Darklight, but it's high enough of a drop rate that players don't get discouraged that running the dungeons is pointless because it's all random.

So what you want is dungeons that reward skill over luck. IN that case, you're asking for longer and more difficult dungeons in exchange for higher drop rates?

[Kowen]

Ppl need to get it in their head that spamming shit does not produce faster results. Roll the dice a few times a day, or a week, and move on. Rolling it 30 times in one day doesnt help you at all. You will lose more than youll win due to the low probability. Spamming it works against you.

Er... maybe I misunderstood your point, but rolling a die 30 times definitely makes it more likely that you'll get a certain number than if you only rolled it once.

[darkstarpoet1]

Er... maybe I misunderstood your point, but rolling a die 30 times definitely makes it more likely that you'll get a certain number than if you only rolled it once.

you are completely correct.

some people such as the poster you quoted doesn't understand that if the average person gets a drop after completing something 50 times that if you run it 20 times a day you are much more likely to get something before someone only running it once a week. using a rng it's not for sure you will get the stuff faster, but your chances are much higher to get faster results.

[Sol_Aureus]

So what you want is dungeons that reward skill over luck. IN that case, you're asking for longer and more difficult dungeons in exchange for higher drop rates?

That is something I want, yes.

Basically the point of this thread is to bring to the attention of the devs that I'm not a fan of the spamable short content that has abysmally low drop rates, and that's been the trend of every single bit of endgame content we've gotten so far, and it's got me worried.

[MrKupo]

I think my whole issue with this is the idea that lvl 50 isn't really end-game. It is a temporaty end-game, yes, but in the long run (if there is a long run) it won't be. People are currently doing 15min runs of Toto-Rak and getting drops frequently. By this game's true end-game, this may be the same for current end-game content.

But my real issue with this whole argument is the fact that people need to get these items in the first place. What do people so desperately need these items for to do 200 speed runs at any given time? There's no PVP yet and there's no content beyond the current end-game. So why push yourself to that limit to the point you are tired of the content when you know very well that there's nothing after that? I think the drop-rates are fine. I don't get ousted from a party for not having those drops so it is no problem to me. I can find just as good gear by other means.

Word of advice, take your damn time or you'll tire yourself out. No matter what SE does, there's people that are going to spam whatever they can whenever. Remember when it was 8 leves every 36 hours? People would complete the 8 in a manner of minutes and then sit in game complaining about nothing to do. There was a problem there i admit, but there are those people that are using the current leve system and they have 0 leve allowances. Stop for a second and take a breather. Ask yourself, 'Do I really need to keep myself up for 12 straight hours to do this raid or can I just leave it to luck?'

Flipping a coin a million times doesn't increase the chances of a heads. It only solidifies the fact that it is 50 50.

[Sol_Aureus]

I think my whole issue with this is the idea that lvl 50 isn't really end-game. It is a temporaty end-game, yes, but in the long run (if there is a long run) it won't be. People are currently doing 15min runs of Toto-Rak and getting drops frequently. By this game's true end-game, this may be the same for current end-game content.

But my real issue with this whole argument is the fact that people need to get these items in the first place. What do people so desperately need these items for to do 200 speed runs at any given time? There's no PVP yet and there's no content beyond the current end-game. So why push yourself to that limit to the point you are tired of the content when you know very well that there's nothing after that? I think the drop-rates are fine. I don't get ousted from a party for not having those drops so it is no problem to me. I can find just as good gear by other means.

Word of advice, take your damn time or you'll tire yourself out. No matter what SE does, there's people that are going to spam whatever they can whenever. Remember when it was 8 leves every 36 hours? People would complete the 8 in a manner of minutes and then sit in game complaining about nothing to do. There was a problem there i admit, but there are those people that are using the current leve system and they have 0 leve allowances. Stop for a second and take a breather. Ask yourself, 'Do I really need to keep myself up for 12 straight hours to do this raid or can I just leave it to luck?'

Flipping a coin a million times doesn't increase the chances of a heads. It only solidifies the fact that it is 50 50.

By that logic why play an MMO at all? Why get gear? There's nothing to use it on other than what you're already doing to get that gear.

But that's what MMOs like this are. We as players constantly chase the carrot at the end of the stick trying to get the best gear, or be the best in PVP, or clear the hardest content. Getting stuff is fun.

[Lux_Rayna]

you are completely correct.

some people such as the poster you quoted doesn't understand that if the average person gets a drop after completing something 50 times that if you run it 20 times a day you are much more likely to get something before someone only running it once a week. using a rng it's not for sure you will get the stuff faster, but your chances are much higher to get faster results.

Err he did misunderstand my point. And I quite understand probability thank you. The problem with probability is that its infinite. There is no "avg person gets a drop after 50 runs," which is precisely why spamming it does not help you. You get it when you get it, it is entirely random when you do get it. As there is no fixed outcome, as there is no fixed result after an avg number of runs, spamming it is just entirely pointless. You increase your chances for getting something faster (in terms of days), theoretically, but no one knows if that difference is significant enough to even be worth doing. That's precisely my point, most of the time when you are spamming something with a low drop rate you are simply wasting your time. The more you try your hand at low odds, the more you'll lose. The best way to play low odds is to spread out your attempts and hope you get lucky.

[Nullie]

I think my whole issue with this is the idea that lvl 50 isn't really end-game. It is a temporaty end-game, yes, but in the long run (if there is a long run) it won't be. People are currently doing 15min runs of Toto-Rak and getting drops frequently. By this game's true end-game, this may be the same for current end-game content.

That is exactly how I feel.

But my real issue with this whole argument is the fact that people need to get these items in the first place. What do people so desperately need these items for to do 200 speed runs at any given time? There's no PVP yet and there's no content beyond the current end-game. So why push yourself to that limit to the point you are tired of the content when you know very well that there's nothing after that? I think the drop-rates are fine. I don't get ousted from a party for not having those drops so it is no problem to me. I can find just as good gear by other means.

Do you just assume people "desperately" want them or do you think they just want to be rewarded for playing the game. Do you think they want to be prepared when new content comes out instead of having to worry about doing a bunch? You say it yourself. There's no content. So what else can you do? Stand around? Log off? If people choose to play the game like that they should. There's nothing wrong with that.

Word of advice, take your damn time or you'll tire yourself out. No matter what SE does, there's people that are going to spam whatever they can whenever. Remember when it was 8 leves every 36 hours? People would complete the 8 in a manner of minutes and then sit in game complaining about nothing to do. There was a problem there i admit, but there are those people that are using the current leve system and they have 0 leve allowances. Stop for a second and take a breather. Ask yourself, 'Do I really need to keep myself up for 12 straight hours to do this raid or can I just leave it to luck?'

Is there something wrong with having 0 leve allowances? Is that something you're not suppose to ever reach? Like the real zero is 50 and you need to take a break there. I don't quite understand that. Some people do things differently than you do. I have full 99 leves all the time. Should someone say to me "Hey, Stop doing what you're doing and use some of those leves. There are people out there who have 0 you know and you're wasting them." Sorry, that doesn't really make sense to me. I don't ever stop and think "Do I need to do this raid for 12 hours." If I did, it would be like "Do I need to play this game period? What do I get out of it? Nothing? Might as well not play and just quit."

Flipping a coin a million times doesn't increase the chances of a heads. It only solidifies the fact that it is 50 50.

Uhm, by my book it does. If I flip a coin once and its tails I'm out of luck. If I choose to flip it another 999,999 times I still have those chances of getting a heads. I think you mean the odds don't increase. Not the chances.

[Jokerz]

Err he did misunderstand my point. And I quite understand probability thank you. The problem with probability is that its infinite. There is no "avg person gets a drop after 50 runs," which is precisely why spamming it does not help you. You get it when you get it, it is entirely random when you do get it. As there is no fixed outcome, as there is no fixed result after an avg number of runs, spamming it is just entirely pointless. You increase your chances for getting something faster (in terms of days), theoretically, but no one knows if that difference is significant enough to even be worth doing. That's precisely my point, most of the time when you are spamming something with a low drop rate you are simply wasting your time. The more you try your hand at low odds, the more you'll lose. The best way to play low odds is to spread out your attempts and hope you get lucky.

And you support content where loot is based on this? I'm not a loot whore myself but I realize the current endgame content is completely half-assed in implementation. I mean speed runs...that in itself is a horrible concept, low drop-rates are frustrating and encourage spamming of content(just read up on voidwatch in FFXI) it's not an issue with the player base, it's SE's recent lack of creativity. I sincerely hope when 2.0 comes around some lasting content will be implemented however, and I'm holding on to the belief that current content is to tide us over.

Really I'm hoping to see more events where I build towards something, or maybe go the monster hunter route where the only drops we receive is monster parts or something, and we have to find a crafter to synthesize the parts into gear. Or gather numerous armor pieces and having them patch together to complete the piece.