Integrity matters

[ZephyrMenodora]

And you realise this thread was never simply about the in-game achievement log despite your hyper-fixation on it, right? It's about the much broader issues of plugin use, automation, cheating, modding and improper moderation which is not healthy for the game.

That's the point we were discussing? Anyway I'll leave you to your caring about whatever this all is lol. I simply don't care all that much about most of the content of your OPs personally and it's fine we have different priorities for what we value in games.

[CCheshire]

"There will always be people willing to cheat so there's no point trying to stop it" - There will always be people willing to commit crimes in real life, so why don't we just legalise all crime. See how silly that sounds? The problem is that there is no penalty or fear of punishment for cheating in FFXIV. Square Enix aren't even trying at all. There is no other major game on the market where cheating is permitted to this depth and scale.

"Mods and plugins gave us so much QoL" - Cool, a lot of that is in the game now and there is no longer any utility in those tools. There's nothing stopping Square Enix from continuing to implement those outstanding QoL features. Just because there were useful QoL features in plugins previously doesn't justify an open license on modding in perpetuity.

"Who cares if people modbeast you can't see it and it doesn't impact your game" - Sure, it doesn't acutely or directly impact another player's experience at a particular point in time. The people who make this claim, however, generally cannot understand second order effects or think beyond their own immediate self-gratification. It's about the culture that is created and the resulting conduct that indirectly impacts the experience for everybody else.

I mean if we compare cheating = real life crimes then this is just a pointless thread since that's comparing apples to oranges in the first place. Then I've dedicated a lot of my time, effort, and money into FFXIV but I don't see it the same as IRL hobbies or goals either because I know once it goes EOS then it's over except for my positive memories and the official forums.

Also ppl have cheated on like so many other online games even if it cost them real money and companies can't stop them like they'll post news saying: we'll stalk your PC for cheaters and then you see new comments saying how this did nothing to change the hackers in competitive games by Nexon with anti-cheated enabled for decades.

The lack of QoL features is just the tip of the iceberg, and PC modding is a huge culture beyond FFXIV too, since mods are the main reason many ppl re-buy games since they allow makers who have way more creative control over the base one.There's many PC MMO and online games that have anti-cheat and still are suffering the same issues too.

Finally, what are the "second order effects" from other client-sided mods? Is it on twitter? You can block others for free there if you find their gpose pics to be offensive too.

Why are we trying to connect MMO/PC modding into real life issues? This is very weird and just your opinion, man. Are you personally harmed by other ppl playing the game differently or is this just grandstanding?

[Avoidy]

Spot on about the content facilitating botting. So much of this content lately has been bot content. You go to the moon and it's nothing but people botting their crafts. Island sanctuary was like this too. Full blown bot content. Even the basic crafting setup is bot content. You have in game macros, but you have to manually click to start the next craft so if you're doing a 99 bulk craft, you have to be sat there at your pc for all 99 of them to activate each one manually. And if your macro's too long, then you have to be there to start part 2 of the macro chain. Nobody wants to deal with that, so loads of people just bot and the bot does the craft for them while they do something that's actually enjoyable.

If this game ever implemented an anti-cheat, it would see a huge player drop off. The game would run worse than it already does, and people who cheat would just negate the anti-cheat in a day and not even have to deal with its pitfalls. This is what always happens. I think all you can do is either accept that this is the way the game is now, or quit. Even the devs know that a huge chunk of players who don't quit while the game's in dead-mode between updates are coomers who use vfx mods to give blowjobs in Ul'dah. In the same way that they won't ban obvious bots because each one is a paying service account, they'll continue to turn a blind eye to mods and botting and cheaters because that's money and those're dedicated customers that the company doesn't want to lose. Just sucks, but there you go.

On another note, it's insane that a random modder in his basement solved the community chat problem before Square could. If you cheat, you can have a cross-region linkshell with space for like 500 people operating on a secure encrypted chat network, but if you don't cheat, you just get crappy linkshells that nobody uses lol. Same with all the UI issues. If you cheat, you can just type /tp [town] and go there, but if you don't cheat you have to open the teleport menu, scroll around until you find the aetheryte in the confusing teleport menu, and then click it. If you want to go to another datacenter and you cheat, you can type /li aether and just alt tab while you go there automatically. If you do it manually, you have to physically sit there through like 5 UI confirmations that you must click each step of the way. It's all inconvenient for no reason. A lot could be streamlined. This game's UI alone is just a series of little aggressions that chip away at your patience. So many instances of clicking a door or throwing something away and seeing "ARE YOU SURE? ARE YOU SURE?" yes, already. Jesus christ dude. It's no wonder at all why people cheat imo. Evercold desperately needs a QoL update to just the shitty ui and all the little friction moments.

[Anonemoose]

I mean if we compare cheating = real life crimes then this is just a pointless thread since that's comparing apples to oranges in the first place. Then I've dedicated a lot of my time, effort, and money into FFXIV but I don't see it the same as IRL hobbies or goals either because I know once it goes EOS then it's over except for my positive memories and the official forums.

Also ppl have cheated on like so many other online games even if it cost them real money and companies can't stop them like they'll post news saying: we'll stalk your PC for cheaters and then you see new comments saying how this did nothing to change the hackers in competitive games by Nexon with anti-cheated enabled for decades.

The lack of QoL features is just the tip of the iceberg, and PC modding is a huge culture beyond FFXIV too, since mods are the main reason many ppl re-buy games since they allow makers who have way more creative control over the base one.There's many PC MMO and online games that have anti-cheat and still are suffering the same issues too.

Finally, what are the "second order effects" from other client-sided mods? Is it on twitter? You can block others for free there if you find their gpose pics to be offensive too.

Why are we trying to connect MMO/PC modding into real life issues? This is very weird and just your opinion, man. Are you personally harmed by other ppl playing the game differently or is this just grandstanding?

It's an illustrative analogy and you're being maliciously obtuse. You clearly understand the point it was making and you know that it was not comparing cheating to real life criminal offending or to the real life issues in the manner you are suggesting to try and characterise me as some sort of weirdo.

Okay and so what? Just because cheaters exist doesn't mean they shouldn't be banned or penalised.

Why can't anti-cheat be as simple as GMs that monitor instances and the game world and ban cheaters? That isn't something that is done in this game, and it would be a great start.

Others and myself have described those "second order effects" in this thread already. Have a read of those posts and let me know what you are still confused about.

[Len_]

Oh so it's not actually trivial after all and it does matter to you. Do you think when people are playing it to pass the time, that their time and effort should matter? Is it fair that they grind FATEs while another player has a bot doing it for them?

I never said it was trivial that was literally a word YOU inserted into the conversation lol. Get a grip. As for your question it is just profoundly depressing for me to imagine someone whose life is so empty that grinding FATEs actually means something to them. But my answer doesn't change: it's all subjective. Id that matters TO YOU then there's nothing anyone can do about it. You're choosing to suffer by continuing to play this game.

[Alice_Rivers]

My own 2p on modding (and goldselling), SE could fix that in one patch cycle if they really wanted to. They just have to create an official modding framework, give modders a way to submit mods, have a tester check them over (make sure they don't break anything) and put them up on an official webpage. People can have their nice things and those things which break TOS or age ratings or whatever other official criteria get denied, any mods out in the wild can be dealt with accordingly and everyone wins. Same with goldselling, SE could kill that overnight by adding gil to their official store, it costs them nothing and makes them all the money the RMT market is currently making (which I might point out pays subs for every bot involved).

[Bubert]

Oh so it's not actually trivial after all and it does matter to you. Do you think when people are playing it to pass the time, that their time and effort should matter? Is it fair that they grind FATEs while another player has a bot doing it for them?

I think single player games would be more suitable for you if what other people are doing it with their game and character triggers you that much.

[CCheshire]

It's an illustrative analogy and you're being maliciously obtuse. You clearly understand the point it was making and you know that it was not comparing cheating to real life criminal offending or to the real life issues in the manner you are suggesting to try and characterise me as some sort of weirdo.

Okay and so what? Just because cheaters exist doesn't mean they shouldn't be banned or penalised.

Why can't anti-cheat be as simple as GMs that monitor instances and the game world and ban cheaters? That isn't something that is done in this game, and it would be a great start.

Others and myself have described those "second order effects" in this thread already. Have a read of those posts and let me know what you are still confused about.

I mean, we're all just chatting about how achievements are important, or not right? I say they're not a huge deal to me, but I don't go and say actually all sports competitions are pointless too because of cheaters in FFXIV.

If you can't explain the reasons for the comment, then have you considered that it doesn't exist or work in the way you used it? I feel like this is talking to a genAI bot now. Also, SE has only so many GMs around the town and hubs they can't watch the instances for every single hour or minute too, since it'd cost too much money and not improve it either.

[Anonemoose]

My own 2p on modding (and goldselling), SE could fix that in one patch cycle if they really wanted to. They just have to create an official modding framework, give modders a way to submit mods, have a tester check them over (make sure they don't break anything) and put them up on an official webpage. People can have their nice things and those things which break TOS or age ratings or whatever other official criteria get denied, any mods out in the wild can be dealt with accordingly and everyone wins. Same with goldselling, SE could kill that overnight by adding gil to their official store, it costs them nothing and makes them all the money the RMT market is currently making (which I might point out pays subs for every bot involved).

I think this is a great idea, and this is the sort of innovation FFXIV desperately needs. Tennogen from Warframe is a great example of how community made assets can be managed by the developer and monetised for the benefit of creators. Such a system could be adopted here.

[Anonemoose]

I mean, we're all just chatting about how achievements are important, and not right? I say they're not a huge deal to me, but I don't go and say actually all sports competitions are pointless too because of cheaters in FFXIV.

If you can't explain the reasons for the comment, then have you considered that it doesn't exist or work in the way you used it? I feel like this is talking to a genAI bot now. Also, SE has only so many GMs around the town and hubs they can't watch the instances for every single hour or minute too, since it'd cost too much money and not improve it either.

You're being a bit weird and silly with that comparison. Nobody suggested that.

I did explain it, and others have explained it. I referred you to those previous explanations. If you genuinely want to understand (and it doesn't seem like you do), you are more than welcome to read those previous explanations in this thread.

I'm not an LLM, not everybody who disagrees with you is an LLM. I'm a human being. Are you?

Okay, and so what? Hire more GMs. Establish log/data points that trigger inspections. Nobody is suggesting a GM stand in every instance in every zone in every world on every data centre necessitating millions of GMs be employed. That's nonsensical and not how it works in reality. If you don't think hiring a few GMs to crack down on bots and cheating would make any improvement to the situation, I don't know what to tell you.