Integrity matters

[DiaDeem]

I'll entertain a point of yours in good faith if you entertain one of mine:

That one gathering app is used by a bunch of real players to patch up an in-game Gathering Log that hasn't been touched since ARR. No favorites, no alerts, no collectible trackers, and don't get me started on the Fishing Log. The alternative becomes using external websites to do the tracking.

Do I condone bots that auto-play the game? Fuck no. To your point: This is still on Yoshida. It's crazy to me that they're so obsessed about the auto-run-to-quest feature, but that I still can't create Favorites lists for my gatherables or track collectible timers.

imho: Plugs discussion has to be nuanced. When it's not one of the obvert cheating or harassing ones, always ask: What hole is this plug patching in the base game?

Why have people been burning down their houses for so long? Because the in-game system is horrendous... for a few more months! Why would someone use a thing to swap Auri horns or just wear long hair? Because those customizing options are not in the base game... yet!

I don't expect to convince anyone. I'm gonna go eat a donut now.

[Scintilla]

"Maybe you're just bad at the game and its a skill issue" - This might come as a surprise to you, but not everybody is as bad at the game as you are. There are people who play a lot of PVP, who are good at PVP, and know exactly what cheating is when they encounter it. No amount or manner of explanation of these issues, technical or otherwise, will ever convince those who are unable or unwilling to understand.

"Maybe you're just bad at the game and its a skill issue" - it's no 'maybe'.

I agree that players who play a lot of PvP and are good at PvP are more likely to know when a player is cheating, but they'll also know and acknowledge when a player/team is just playing and coordinating well. They'll know what works and what doesn't, they'll know good tactics and teamwork when they see it, they'll have a better awareness of what went wrong and why the other team had the upper hand. In contrast, far too many casual players will just default to "They're playing too well, definitely hacking/wintrading".

In Ranked CC (especially higher rank queues) it can be an issue, but it's genuinely not as widespread an issue as many claim.

[Anonemoose]

I'll entertain a point of yours in good faith if you entertain one of mine:

That one gathering app is used by a bunch of real players to patch up an in-game Gathering Log that hasn't been touched since ARR. No favorites, no alerts, no collectible trackers, and don't get me started on the Fishing Log. The alternative becomes using websites to do the tracking.

Do I condone bots that auto-play the game? Fuck no. To your point: This is still on Yoshida. It's crazy to me that they're so obsessed about the auto-run feature, but that I still can't create Favorites lists for my gatherables or track collectible timers.

imho: Plugs discussion has to be nuanced. When it's not one of the obvert cheating or harassing ones, always ask: What hole is this plug patching in the base game?

Why have people been burning down their houses for so long? Because the in-game system is horrendous. Why would someone use a thing to swap Auri horns or just wear long hair? Because it's not in the base game... yet!

I don't expect to convince anyone. I'm gonna go eat a donut now.

Thank you, and I actually agree with you. There does need to be some nuance, and there are plugins that serve legitimate QoL purposes. There's no reason why there shouldn't be housing templates in the game, which is something that is instead achieved through a particular plugin. Of course this is different to the plugins that automate gameplay, and different again to modbeasting.

I don't think that the utility of particular plugins that should be a game feature (such as the housing plugin referenced) is a rationale to say that all mods and plugins are okay. It can be true that some plugins serve a functional, legitimate QoL purpose, while other plugins are used to facilitate cheating through automation or otherwise. Everybody knows what cheating is and everybody knows what botting is. Everybody also knows the difference between a housing template and automating gameplay. For reasons unknown, so many FFXIV players pretend to not understand.

[Turtledeluxe]

Can't you turn titles off? Thus by default, titles are inherently useless. It is unlikely for this to ever be reversed.

Similarly, the team does not appear overly concerned about "bad behavior" unless it causes bad publicity, a monetary loss, or both.

The game is technically in its later stages of life. Consider that we are already a few years into post Endwalker. I don't see meaningful changes in policy happening. It's more like a new game will launch in the next 5 to 7 years.

[DiaDeem]

while other plugins are used to facilitate cheating through automation or otherwise.

This is why I still believe a dev-approved hub for plugs would be good for everyone.

- Takes pressure off the devs to implement QoL features already covered by a plug.
- Lets the devs monitor the plugs, and make sure the bad ones are not even allowed.
- Would probably offer better/quicker implementation after a game update.
- Opens QoL (and long hair/beards) to console players.
- The devs could have a "Featured" section for stuff that's really good/popular/useful.
- With a dev-approved platform, you could squash all the other ones much more easily.

Of course there would be stuff to iron out, but it's the wild west right now. The good, and the bad.

[Bryson]

Letting strangers live rent free in your head sounds miserable OP. You could just not care, be based, and play the game.

[Jeeqbit]

I don't really understand why so many people have the opinion of "I don't really care so it's not an issue" or "It doesn't harm anyone so it's fine" or a particularly strange one here "it's not as bad as you think, barely anyone does it" like that makes it okay?

It's not that it makes it okay, it's that OP tried to paint the picture that almost everyone was automating things, which just isn't the case. I'm in a lot of very social spaces in the game and it's pretty obvious to me that they all actually play the game and are bad enough at the game that they can't possibly be using anything to automate it. The things they say, how they say them and how they enact them would be very different if it was widespread.

Furthermore, it being a minority or a majority is really what determines whether automating things is a "big problem".

As for cosmetic changes, that's different because it doesn't affect others and is much more widespread. For what it's worth, they actually did crack down on that recently.

In terms of market board issues, I accept there are probably issues there, but I can't particularly put it all down to automation. Some people just love to undercut, but I still find items that sell for a lot when doing maps and other content, and I have no trouble selling them and making gil.

[caffe_macchiato]

The community is easily the worst part of FFXIV. Cheating is black and white. If you inject code to automate gameplay and stretch your playtime to 24/7/365 when a normal person can't, you're cheating. There is no debate. I don't care what "valid" reasons you have for arbitrary code injection.

The FFXIV community gets what it deserves at this point: a company that doesn't care, not for cheating or anything else (check the status logs).

[TeresaFortell]

This is why I still believe a dev-approved hub for plugs would be good for everyone.

- Takes pressure off the devs to implement QoL features already covered by a plug.
- Lets the devs monitor the plugs, and make sure the bad ones are not even allowed.
- Would probably offer better/quicker implementation after a game update.
- Opens QoL (and long hair/beards) to console players.
- The devs could have a "Featured" section for stuff that's really good/popular/useful.
- With a dev-approved platform, you could squash all the other ones much more easily.

Of course there would be stuff to iron out, but it's the wild west right now. The good, and the bad.

You would have to put a lot of faith in the developers for that to happen. Given how arbitrarily they apply their own TOS, I don't think there is enough confidence to entrust them with such an undertaking.

[Shinku_Tachi]

Cheating sucks and people should obviously be dealt with if they're doing it.

But I'm also against the use of anti-cheat on principle.