Phoenix down should be usable in Normal trials and raids

[TeresaFortell]

8 man content is harder than dungeons. Especially 8 man raids. Wipes happen a lot more frequently in there. But it's still the same baseline of difficulty bracket (story level content), that's like extreme trials vs late savage fights in their own difficulty bracket (challenging content).

And yes of course you can solo trials and raids as tanks, but like for dungeons it depends if those encounters have stack markers or not (soft body checks). Those tend to flatten tanks if they're the only ones still standing. So to make it more egregious sometimes you have the tanks continue tanking to show off, and it lasts for ages until a stack marker comes back, and they wipe, and waste everyone's time.

In the case of normal raids/trials, there is still a need to mitigate, but many newcomers don't know that until they get hit by raidwides afterwards. Pd may also help to alleviate that situation, and wiping most of the party on a raidwide could be prevented if pd can be used.

[Veritas-Ancora]

In the case of normal raids/trials, there is still a need to mitigate, but many newcomers don't know that until they get hit by raidwides afterwards. Pd may also help to alleviate that situation, and wiping most of the party on a raidwide could be prevented if pd can be used.

It's an interesting idea bringing phoenix downs into normal raids and trials. I wouldn't object to it.

[Kemiko]

Back when this change was first made, I had the stance that they should've been allowed in 8-man content to begin with rather than it be arbitrarily unavailable. Like Raise, Phoenix Down is a FF staple and it should exist and serve it's purpose as an item-resource alternative to Raise that non-Raise casting jobs can use, in particular, on the Raise casting job should they go down. I've never been in argument for it being unavailable for Extreme or harder content. Story 8-man trials and, literally, Normal Raids are where it would shine most.

Folks shouldn't be afraid to wipe from time to time, but I do not see the difference in allowing something to literally hard cast raise with an item vs. being pressured into thinking they should play one of the 5 jobs with it just so people have a better chance to experience the content. My stance hasn't changed.

[Valence]

Frankly they could extend it to everything, what would it even change even in savage lol

Good luck raising in time with phoenix downs in savage+ content. Party is probably gonna bite the dust before the raise even resolves anyway. And it would solve the perpetual lie that the devs have kept gaslighting the community with that SMN and RDM's raise tax is somehow justified.

[Asako]

I'd agree for this too. NM and Trials are also casual content. Enrages were removed from them years ago so who cares if we have to scoop someone with a Phoenix? It's still an 8 second cast time which is fair with a 4 minute cooldown. Honestly I'd prefer they extend it to these and remove Raise from non healer jobs as the huge cooldown is a better balancing agent.

Again, it's casual so it doesn't really matter. The 4 man change was great and I've used plenty of them to scoop people.

[Arrius]

I'd agree for this too. NM and Trials are also casual content. Enrages were removed from them years ago so who cares if we have to scoop someone with a Phoenix? It's still an 8 second cast time which is fair with a 4 minute cooldown. Honestly I'd prefer they extend it to these and remove Raise from non healer jobs as the huge cooldown is a better balancing agent.

Again, it's casual so it doesn't really matter. The 4 man change was great and I've used plenty of them to scoop people.

If the players still manage to hit their head on that low bar of difficulty, maybe it's better they work on themselves to overcome it - The encounters only get snappier over the expansions.
So I am with Deejudanne - Keep the Phoenix Down away.

[Ankhira]

tbh I think people should be punished for their incompetence so they can actually learn, and the best way to achieve that is them dying to their incompetence and making everyone else rather exhausted in their presence. Eventually, they'll learn.

/e: That is to say, we shouldn't be carrying deadweight over the finish line. Phoenix Downs encourage bad habits in trials/raids where people seem to think they just gotta be a body. Not even a warm body.

Calling other players incompetent or dead weight for dying in normal content is not a healthy way to talk about people in an MMO's tbh. We’re not discussing Phoenix Downs in Savage or Ultimates. This is about normal content. People die for all kinds of reasons: learning, lag, getting hit by someone else, or just having an off day. That doesn’t make them dead weight or inferior.

I'm sorry if this is rude, but your whole comment reads like a superiority complex applied to content where there are literally zero stakes. I did M12N earlier this week with a new player who kept dying because they were slow, and it was completely fine. We ressed, they kept trying, they apologized and it was all fine. It’s a game, not a job. You can enjoy pushing yourself, that’s valid, but pushing that expectation onto everyone else isn’t. Most people don’t get exhausted when someone dies in normal content. they just go “Oh, I’ll res them.”

If people want an environment where one mistake or death causes wipes, that’s exactly what Savage and Ultimate are for. Normal content is designed to be accessible, and ways that help groups recover from mistakes don’t harm anyone.

As for the “I want to queue into content and feel like I have to pay attention” mention someone gave earlier, I get what you mean and I would love that too, but honestly that’s not what normal content is right now or has been for a while. Telegraphs take ages to go off, and even if someone dies, there’s almost always a healer or RDM/SMN ready to res. The actual risk of wiping is extremely low, and adding Phoenix Downs isn’t going to suddenly change the difficulty curve which is already small to begin with.

If anything, I'd like a way to remove people who die on purpose and then stay dead all fight long or just auto attack. Especially in Alliance Raids because there's little to no difficulty they can't cause wipes or get kicked since they're in combat and they refuse to roll on loot and by the time the timer ends the next boss is pulled. I take more issue with those, not people who die over and over.

[CaptainLagbeard]

I still mostly say no.

But I am willing to compromise... Remove Tank's abilities to heal other people, and bring enrage timers to Normal Raids and Trials. Then I'd be ok with Phoenix Downs in them.

[CCheshire]

I still mostly say no.

But I am willing to compromise... Remove Tank's abilities to heal other people, and bring enrage timers to Normal Raids and Trials. Then I'd be ok with Phoenix Downs in them.

Wait, hold on like some ppl already struggle with normal content, and why make it even more miserable for them? If anyone thought I find raids and trials to be too easy, they can join the savage raiders on Aether and everyone else who is hitting their heads against the PF wall with prog and re-clearing each new reset on Tuesday.

No one will think having feathers with a super long CD will ruin the gameplay because you can't spam them either way, like sometimes you can't save everyone with them.

[Asari5]

some people yearn for harder than casual content without having to bash their heads against a wall for hours. and normal raid is the closest we have to that