Phoenix down should be usable in Normal trials and raids

[PyurBlue]

This thread is kinda funny, people were all yelling at SE for giving us phoenix downs in content, they did for light parties, but now people are against it for trials and raids.
Or I guess i'm doing a goomba fallacy here?

"The community" doesn't exist. Many, many people are expressing many, many opinions and some are heard more than others.

The lack of raise items was perfectly fine with me but I had no reason to voice that opinion until now.

[Valence]

I assume its because some people felt light party content was getting harder in Dawntrail, which necessitated Phoenix Down use in their eyes with how often people were dying (this IS the expansion that gave us all those infamous "30 minutes of the tank soloing the final dungeon boss"), whereas people still routinely call 8-man content "too easy" so allowing Phoenix Downs "dumbs it down further" to them. Doubly so when there's an increased amount of revives already available from the 2nd healer along with a chance of having SMN/RDM in there.

Now that I think about it though... weren't there incidents of tanks soloing DT trials and normal raids too while the rest of the party was on the floor? Or was it strictly 4-man dungeons?

8 man content is harder than dungeons. Especially 8 man raids. Wipes happen a lot more frequently in there. But it's still the same baseline of difficulty bracket (story level content), that's like extreme trials vs late savage fights in their own difficulty bracket (challenging content).

And yes of course you can solo trials and raids as tanks, but like for dungeons it depends if those encounters have stack markers or not (soft body checks). Those tend to flatten tanks if they're the only ones still standing. So to make it more egregious sometimes you have the tanks continue tanking to show off, and it lasts for ages until a stack marker comes back, and they wipe, and waste everyone's time.

[Gwenkatsu]

Isn't it widely accepted on this forums that everything MSQ related is baby mode anyway?
In this case adding Phoenix Downs to MSQ trials wouldn't change anything, right?

[Supersnow845]

Isn't it widely accepted on this forums that everything MSQ related is baby mode anyway?
In this case adding Phoenix Downs to MSQ trials wouldn't change anything, right?

It’s widely accepted on the forums that content is too easy to be cleared on average. It doesn’t mean some people won’t still die

Making it easier to zerge fest off the tanks being immortal doesn’t make this problem better

[Aidorouge]

8 man content is harder than dungeons. Especially 8 man raids. Wipes happen a lot more frequently in there. But it's still the same baseline of difficulty bracket (story level content), that's like extreme trials vs late savage fights in their own difficulty bracket (challenging content).

And yes of course you can solo trials and raids as tanks, but like for dungeons it depends if those encounters have stack markers or not (soft body checks). Those tend to flatten tanks if they're the only ones still standing. So to make it more egregious sometimes you have the tanks continue tanking to show off, and it lasts for ages until a stack marker comes back, and they wipe, and waste everyone's time.

Hmm, that would suggest Square-Enix is fine with this idea of "semi-immortal" tanks then because instead of any kind of nerf to their sustain or normal difficulty adjustments they instead expect them to pick people off the ground with Phoenix Downs if everyone but them ends up dead from a mechanic.

So yeah, no reason to not add Phoenix Downs to trials and normal raids then. Now whether or not tanks will actually bother to revive others... well, no controlling that.

[0blivion]

Isn't it widely accepted on this forums that everything MSQ related is baby mode anyway?
In this case adding Phoenix Downs to MSQ trials wouldn't change anything, right?

The point is to increase access barriers to higher difficulty content for players who cannot even survive normal mode.

e/: I think they could probably get away with making most trials Dury Support (but don't fuck up the story to make it possible again, just add random NPCs again), that way other players don't need to fix the mistakes of a few people who are better off playing Single Player anyway.

[Nadda]

I don't think they should.

BUT a compromise.

Word on the street is that Summoners and Red Mages will be losing their ability to raise next expansion.

IF for example that happens - I wouldn't be opposed to the idear of players having phoenix downs as a battle res item. Once per pull. I think that be fair.

Just needs to be balanced as to not be cheese'd.

[Deejudanne]

rather have them removed completely

[Veritas-Ancora]

Phoenix Down only matters when the healer dies.

In 4-player content, it makes sense to rez the healer.

Should that apply to 8-player when both healers die? I don't know.

[Gurgeh]

This is 'not' aimed at the OP, their opinion is a full 100% as valid as mine, but it doesn't work for what I would want out of the game.

If some people 'want' to use phoenix downs that's fine. I won't stop them.
Me, I 'want' dungeons and normal raids to wipe more often, so I won't be using them.

I'm struggling to maintain the illusion that mitigation as a tank has much meaning now. The truth is it has that with phoenix downs it now has none. Its a style choice and thats it. If you die its not the healers problem anymore, you phoenix yourself I assume? If someone else dies while your down, again they just phoenix down themselves.
I'm also not buying a single phoenix down. It was bad enough having to use extortionately expensive food for extremes, that were effectively mandatory. Its the disingenuousness of it. At least make having a 99 stack of food a game system forced entry requirement. I don't want a single thing that is going to cost more gil, which is just yet another advantage to people who use crafting QoL add-ons, and the other myriad ways to abuse and exploit the game and get gil rich easier. I can't believe submarine farming is still a thing. Just switch it off and dump the craftables in a store until you can do something about it. That's a busy 2 weeks with an excel sheet and 2 weeks coding.
If you want to me to use phoenix down in a dungeon, and if they are supposed to "cost effectively nothing", then don't waste a second of my time, and just make it an ability with no cooldown, which if there is any argument that every one should be ready to use phoenix downs, they might as well be then.
Food toxicity from highend now in the casual game. Yay. I can see it already.

I'm amazed that the healers aren't up in arms about phoenix downs. Or are they just... that... crushed now. Red mage? Now everyone is a their own red mage baby!

They should have just given healers only, their own self raise for dungeons. To help anxious players tackle their first 'expert' dungeons while not at full team +10ilvl cap.