GNB feedback.

[Carighan]

Not the entire design. Mix&match what worked vs what doesn't work. For example GW2 can teach us a few things, among them how a unified buff/debuff system is actually kinda cool, but has to be handled with care lest it needs to a sort-of mudflation economic. Meanwhile just saying you for 50+ skills does nothing if none of them are truly noteworthy, a problem FFXIV is also beginning to scrape as between 20-30 skills per class, it's difficult to find identity naturally, too many buttons to spread that identity over.
Meanwhile it also shows that an oops-all-AoEs setup actually works really well, in particular for support skills (you never target someone to support). It also shows how active dodge works in MMORPGs (and WoW's Illidan class shows how the boundaries of where it stops working). All MMOs but in particular WoW's early times and DAoC's entire lifetime show the troubles with pets in fights, but also how to create the illusion of a pet class despite mechanically not being one.

And so on. Yes, classes are as balanced as they ever were. Of course they are, there are essentially only 6 classes (Tank, Regen Healer, Shield Healer, Melee, Mobile Ranged, Semi-mobile Ranged). Extreme amounts of homogenization naturally lead to exchangeability, but also to a total lack of meaning behind what class you play. They all perform awfully similar, they all play awfully similar, what's the point in playing a PLD instead of a GNB for example? All fights are designed for the 97% shared DNA these two classes have, anyways. The rest has no meaning.

[CidHeiral]

What irony? Are you really going to compare an entire job overhaul to a CD being shortened and a single ability being given a charge? Give me a break.

Your continual mischaracterization of the changes only furthers the point. You are entitled to like whatever job design you wish, but don't pretend you care about jobs getting lobotomized. You are no different than the people who got DRK and every other job gutted.

Case in point:

I don't know if I'd say it's bottom barrel but in terms of individuality oh my god yes it is.

Other mmos might feel worse to play generally speaking but at least they're classes actually have distinct features from one another in forms that aren't "this deals damage" or "this deals damage but *every minute or two*"

Like yeah I enjoy the hell out of current patch GNB but that doesn't change how absolutely shallow differences in mechanics, if any, are between jobs. The water doesn't go above my ankles.

"I enjoy the hell out of this job getting homogenized but man it sucks that all the jobs are homogenized."

You are the target audience, dude.

that being said I too was confused by how these awesome changes ruined the job for some people being its dopamine more often. Some people don't enjoy the things we like and have more fun working around the job jank to discover flavor thru overcoming painpoints rather than playing renzokuken simulator.

If all someone cares about is looking at flashy spell effects then I can see how they would love the changes. Personally I need more than that from a job to find it enjoyable.

[Shurrikhan]

Agreed on the other comments, but...

I don't know why not Warrior, but I will assume you mean a tank that heals itself based on the damage they do and not a fixed potency value. The problem, you cannot balance it as it will either be too strong, which further pushes healers away (which is already an issue), or it is too weak to mean anything.

This is funny as heck to me. Heals can crit, the same as damage. Heals scale with certain buffs, the same as damage. Heals scale with gear, the same as damage. (Unless this has been changed since EW and I've forgotten that change, they even inherit auto-crits.)

The only differences between healing for a flat rate per hit and healing based on damage actually dealt are (A) whether its scales with the likes of Temperance and Mantra or Battle Litany and Battle Voice and (B) whether you want to them to depend on rotational/maintained damage buffs.

As a reference from my PLD, Fast Blade does ~5% of my max HP in damage and Sepulchre does ~10%. How much healing would you want out of this?

Fast Blade does 220 potency. Divine Magic (Mastery II) does 400. Sepulchre does 540 and would, it healing based on damage dealt, heal for more than Holy Spirit. Clemency is 1000, the same as Confiteor and Blade of Valor.

That's not a matter of whether it came from an attack. It's simply a matter of potency.

Dodge tank would be pointless. You cannot dodge any major mechanic

"Dodge tanks" do not necessarily have to use a gamewide basic RNG-dodge as a significant portion of their actual sustain. It's just a visual theme for whatever sustain they may have, where any RNG can be as modest as parry has been, or even lesser. It more often just implies simply that beyond some extent of mitigation, no debuffs are taken, similarly to what's possible on a "barrier tank", and may imply some extra benefit to mostly-reliable mitigation against numerous small attacks compared to other tanks, in exchange for needing to be (a bit) better topped off or shielded than other tanks before big hits to reliably meet their checks in turn (or else needing some manner of purgatory mechanic to provide that reliability now and then without being OP).

[Mikey_R]

This is funny as heck to me. Heals can crit, the same as damage. Heals scale with certain buffs, the same as damage. Heals scale with gear, the same as damage. (Unless this has been changed since EW and I've forgotten that change, they even inherit auto-crits.)

The only differences between healing for a flat rate per hit and healing based on damage actually dealt are (A) whether its scales with the likes of Temperance and Mantra or Battle Litany and Battle Voice and (B) whether you want to them to depend on rotational/maintained damage buffs.

The point here wasn't about the result, but about the execution. One, the healing is based on the damage you do, the other is a fixed value based on the attack. This could be enough to make someone point to a job and say, they aren't a drain tank, just because it wasn't based on damage done.


However, just to clear up things about auto crits, it depends. If the attack naturally does auto-crit, it will be a crit heal, however, if the attack is forced into an auto-crit state, it does not mean the heal will be an auto crit. This can easily be tested by using Inner Release on Warrior along with Bloodwhetting. The heal from the Fell Cleaves are not guaranteed to crit, however, heals from Primal Rend, Primal Ruination and Inner Chaos do.

Also, none of the tanks have the ability to increase their healing. Fight or Flight, Surging Tempest etc. all increase damage but not healing.

Temperance only affects the White Mage and only affects the spells, NOT abilities, ie. Cure 2 gets buffed, but not Tetragrammaton. Contrast this with Asylum that does provide the extra healing benefit to everything (the difference is 'Healing Magic Potency' is only spells and 'Healing Actions' is everything).

Mantra does increase the heals from things like Second Wind, however, I cannot test if it also affects things like Storm's Path or Bloodwhetting.

I do not know if Battle Litany or similar things the affect crit rate of healing spells/actions, or if they increase the healing potency of auto heal actions (Bloodwhetting certain attacks or Scholar's Recitation I think are the only auto crit heals).

Bloodbath is the odd one out in all of this as it heals a direct proportion of damage, what that proportion is seems to vary wildly though. Running a quick test, thinking it would be a fixed value, I got weird results. Auto attacks seem to be about 18.9% of the damage but GCD seemed to ranged from about 12.87% from Dragon Kick to 6.38% on a crit Leaping Opo. Importantly though, it is not affected by Mantra, though who knows how things like Battle Litany will affect things.

Fast Blade does 220 potency. Divine Magic (Mastery II) does 400. Sepulchre does 540 and would, it healing based on damage dealt, heal for more than Holy Spirit. Clemency is 1000, the same as Confiteor and Blade of Valor.

That's not a matter of whether it came from an attack. It's simply a matter of potency.

Yes. The whole point of this was to determine what % of damage dealt should be healed on each attack for a 'drain' tank. As I said, I put in these values as a reference point to try and help place what they would consider to be an acceptable value.

"Dodge tanks" do not necessarily have to use a gamewide basic RNG-dodge as a significant portion of their actual sustain. It's just a visual theme for whatever sustain they may have, where any RNG can be as modest as parry has been, or even lesser. It more often just implies simply that beyond some extent of mitigation, no debuffs are taken, similarly to what's possible on a "barrier tank", and may imply some extra benefit to mostly-reliable mitigation against numerous small attacks compared to other tanks, in exchange for needing to be (a bit) better topped off or shielded than other tanks before big hits to reliably meet their checks in turn (or else needing some manner of purgatory mechanic to provide that reliability now and then without being OP).

Any important debuffs are going to be applied regardless of shield or dodge potential. This game really doesn't have many cases of numerous, small, attacks outside of dungeon trash, which is the only place it is reliable. A healers current ability to shield is not going to be enough to allow the tank to survive in any serious content, they need some way to reduce damage, at which point, even if it is a case of 'dodging' 40% of the damage, that is effectively the same as mitigating 40% of the damage. You could say the theme behind it is different, but also, how would people actually see it. It's just another 40% tank mitigation. Even going so far as to have their big cooldown being dodge almost all attacks, that is functionally the same as Paladin's Hallowed Ground (cue the cries of homogeneity).

And that's kinda the point: FFXIV needs to look to other MMOs why certain things didn't work, for nobody else. And while sure, hey, maybe 10th time the charm. Chances are, it's not. :P

Yes, and they might have done already, we do not know. They might have looked at the shields on Blood Death Knight from over 13 years ago, seen that WoW has changed the job for reasons and decided well, it didn't work for them, so we won't bother, or, they might have looked at it, tested it, and decided, it did not work. Ultimately, we do not know what has and has not been tested and that is the thing to keep in mind.

[Kishin12345]

Imagine old gnb in this savage tier xD

[Zairava]

snipped

I am absolutely not the target audience. You do realize I can have fun with how it currently is, and see and criticize how it's flawed, right?

I would prefer if they were NOT homogenized and lobotomized, but I'm not going to sit here and be miserable the entire damn time lmao

I don't give a rats ass if they don't design certain jobs to be fun for me or anyone else. I just won't play that job, and others should follow the same. Don't pull that stunt, it doesn't apply to me in the slightest and is quite frankly infuriating. I'd take back StB and prior design in a heartbeat bar TP which can stay dead in a fire

[Carighan]

Imagine old gnb in this savage tier xD

You mean before this change? Yes? That'd work fine? After all DRK works, and GNB essentially switched from a DRK-type tank (120s burst, can fumble your resources and misplan them) to a WAR-type tank (60s burst, essentially can at worst waste resource income to overcapping). DRKs do fine, and hence pre-change GNB would, too.

[Mikey_R]

You mean before this change? Yes? That'd work fine? After all DRK works, and GNB essentially switched from a DRK-type tank (120s burst, can fumble your resources and misplan them) to a WAR-type tank (60s burst, essentially can at worst waste resource income to overcapping). DRKs do fine, and hence pre-change GNB would, too.

I would say it was less about being 120s compared to 60s and more to do with Gnashing Fang timings, which, I do not know how things would line up there.

[Zairava]

I would say it was less about being 120s compared to 60s and more to do with Gnashing Fang timings, which, I do not know how things would line up there.

Would they not just be the same? You still want to use it every 30s either way unless you microoptimize a single oGCD for the next window which honestly isn't worth it. The main thing is now you can make up for lost GF uses with the second charge.

As for DRK, it might as well be a WAR type burst, I consider it to be. The only 2m CD's are LS and henceforth Disesteem. The line is excruciatingly slim. I'm shocked they even left Salted at 90s.

[Mikey_R]

Would they not just be the same? You still want to use it every 30s either way unless you microoptimize a single oGCD for the next window which honestly isn't worth it. The main thing is now you can make up for lost GF uses with the second charge.

Not necessarily, if you cannot hit the boss for whatever reason, which I think is more abundant in this tier than previous, then you can potentially risk Gnashing Fang drifting further back in the rotation, with no way to bring it forward. This could misalign it with burst periods where it might clash with another GCD (Double Down) pushing one of them further back, or even getting in the way of Lionheart which would push Gnashing Fang back even further.

Would this be an issue in the current tier? I do not know, I never played Gunbreaker to that level, but hopefully a more experienced Gunbreaker could clarify.