GNB feedback.

[Rithy255]

1. PLD already has more support than the other tanks with Passage of Arms and Cover that the other tanks cannot replicate. They can also Holy Sheltron themselves and Intervention someone else in a short timespan. The closest another tank gets to that is Dark Knight with TBN on themselves and Oblation on someone else, but Oblation is far weaker than Intervention, even ignoring the extra mitigation that Intervention can be given via Rampart/Guardian.
2. Which would mean DRK would want to MT as much as possible, where, anytime they have to OT, they lose damage. You could add in a skill that still allows the retaliatory action whilst OT, but that then that just proves the initial premise was flawed.
3. So, Mudras for Gunbreaker? I thought people didn't want the jobs to be the same. Oh, different combo enders give different resources? Just like Samurai then, except it is a mash up of the Mudra and Samurai concepts. With what I have read, many people would just make the claim that you are making the jobs play the same (I'm not going to make that claim though). Also, if there is any damage focused options, they will be used over the supporting ones, every time.
4. Line up your GCDs from highest priority to lowest priority, hit in that order as they light up. Sorry, it might appeal to some, but that doesn't sound exciting at all. Current Warrior would be better and it is simple as anything.

You can have your own ideas about jobs and what you want out of them, but unless it fits in with the game's framework, it isn't going to work.

1. PLD while having the highest support/utility doesn't make it that far ahead, sorry but cover isn't even apart of the equation it's a niche skill that will maybe get a use once in a blue moon, Passage of arms while nice is still very much only useful in situations where party members are actively behind you (in high end not a lot due to how mechs work) Intervention Does not get extra mitigation it gets equal to holy sheltron mitigation IF you have rampart/guardian it's kind of a odd point to make, like yeah PLD can mit for a extra 10% instead of 20% but gnb can just mit 30% and provide a excog without rampart/Nebula, 2 charges of holy sheltron/intervention (which is holy sheltron for a friend) gauge is a actual benefit to the job other then when passage is good its good.

2. Depends how its designed DRK could obviously put skills onto the MT and punish players, so your point about them being OT doesn't seem correct, which is weak reasoning to be against the premise

3. Mudras for gunbreaker would make it unironically unique compared to how any tank plays, though I don't think they suggested that, I think by jobs being the same DPS-wise its fine if a Tank has a somewhat similar system to a DPS, like I would find it very fun if there was a RNG based rotation similar to how DNC feels on a tank, what makes jobs stale and boring is that they have very samey rotations in the same category.

4. To be fair im not 100% sure on what changes for what warrior they've suggested would look like but I think most things to me seem exciting then current warrior, though I'd at least have to see it first and how it work before I have a strong opinion on it, either way I appreciate the idea of a unique direction to take warrior.

Games framework is a buzzword, PLD having more or better support/utility options doesn't break the games frame work, nor does "mudras for GNB" The games framework should also change sometimes, while we haven't seen big changes in a long time so its likely realistic to expect nothing changing anytime soon but at the same time lets not pretend anything they said was out of this world, your acting like they're asking for TP and cleric stance back lol.

[Zairava]

It's moreso I can't get behind mudras on a tank specifically. Lets say they copy the 3 mudra system as an example, are they going to also copy the fact the mudra gets purged if you press anything else? Because if it does then lmao have fun weaving your defensives mid-burst or cast on GNB

[Carighan]

You can have your own ideas about jobs and what you want out of them, but unless it fits in with the game's framework, it isn't going to work.

I'm going to assume you have comparatively little knowledge of other MMORPGs, yes?

Hence why you instantly lock up when you read something like "damage tank", "That cannot possibly work!", or why a tank that dodges instead of reducing damage seems impossible to you? But let me assure you, it's not only possible, it is actively working. Both in past and in present MMORPGs. It doesn't even take much imagination to consider how these would work in FFXIV.

I also am sorry, but I have to laugh about how FFXIV-skewed some of you readings of sentences are. The whole point is to be less like FFXIV because that is bad. That's the entire point of these statements, of the whole thread maybe. So naturally any solution to the problem has to be "not FFXIV-y" in nature. That's the entire solution, the devs don't have to invent anything as 30 years of MMORPGs have done all the R&D for them, they just have to mark what didn't work for other MMOs, remove that, then copy what other MMOs did that worked. It's fun if the space is explored and the problems already solved, means the solution is trivial insofar that you already know the wrong from the right answers.

In particular:
Paladins does not have any meaningful amounts of "more support", particularly so because they don't actually perform support. How many GCDs do you spend on healing, shielding and rezzing again as a Paladin? Do you weave songs like a DAoC Albion Paladin for mixed group buffs? Do you swap out of tank mode to provide HoTs and rezz people like a TBC bear druid? Do you move negative effects on partymembers to yourself like a GW2 Guardian?

And that's how I feel reading all of your comments, tbh. You seem to completely either lack knowledge of, imagination for or trust of anything that isn't the current FFXIV set of class design. But the entire criticism is that this class design is very, very, very bad, even comparing non-successful past MMOs, nevermind successful ones. It's understandable how we got to where we are, sure. The intention the devs have for it is also easy to see. But it's not good, that is the point!

(also as Rithy says Mudras would actually be interesting on a tank, in particular if they're for the defensive stuff so you have to plan ahead)

[Carighan]

It's moreso I can't get behind mudras on a tank specifically. Lets say they copy the 3 mudra system as an example, are they going to also copy the fact the mudra gets purged if you press anything else? Because if it does then lmao have fun weaving your defensives mid-burst or cast on GNB

No clue, Mikey understood something I never said as mudras (and frankly I absolutely can't see where they got the idea but whatever, maybe the in-order wording confused them). But thinking about it, if I had to have a tank have a mudra-like system I'd probably want it for the defensive skills, and yes I'd have it purge. It'd be tricky to balance, as you'd have a tank that essentially can chain their strongest CD multiple times as the CD is on the mudras not the skills produced from them. So Heart of Corundum and the 40% share the same effective CD, in a way?

But that's balanceable. Not in the current framework (which was my bigger point, that framework needs to be removed), but would be doable. But again, never suggest mudras for a tank, and while I love the idea of having to 3-4-2 or 2-3-4 in the middle of handling a tank-swap conceptually, I don't think it'd be fun to play.

[Zairava]

No clue, Mikey understood something I never said as mudras (and frankly I absolutely can't see where they got the idea but whatever, maybe the in-order wording confused them). But thinking about it, if I had to have a tank have a mudra-like system I'd probably want it for the defensive skills, and yes I'd have it purge. It'd be tricky to balance, as you'd have a tank that essentially can chain their strongest CD multiple times as the CD is on the mudras not the skills produced from them. So Heart of Corundum and the 40% share the same effective CD, in a way?

But that's balanceable. Not in the current framework (which was my bigger point, that framework needs to be removed), but would be doable. But again, never suggest mudras for a tank, and while I love the idea of having to 3-4-2 or 2-3-4 in the middle of handling a tank-swap conceptually, I don't think it'd be fun to play.

It straight up just sounds counterintuitive and/or unfun to me on a tank and it maybe would work with defensives, but you might run into a problem where the cast is too fast for you to pull it off. There's also the problem of, again this is if it's a straight rip, a GCD, you're competing with the offensive GCD's.

I'm the type of fella who likes being able to choose between using a GCD or a resource for both dps and defensive abilities but for the ffxiv it's basically a poison for some reason. oh no, choices, spooky. /malevolence.

Part of why I miss draw and junction in pvp..but I can't complain too much. GNB is pretty bangin in pvp.

[CidHeiral]

the literal only thing that's different is...LH every minute.

Wrong.

my (maybe ex-main now, we'll see) DRK got lobotomized in ShB and still hasn't recovered.

Right now it's in the best spot it's ever been. The most fun it's ever been.

The irony.

[Zairava]

Wrong.





The irony.

What irony? Are you really going to compare an entire job overhaul to a CD being shortened and a single ability being given a charge? Give me a break.

[Reginald_Cain]

What irony? Are you really going to compare an entire job overhaul to a CD being shortened and a single ability being given a charge? Give me a break.

Ok hear me out as someone else who liked the changes this patch, Gunbreaker was fine before, didnt NEED changes and some people liked having to manually fill bullets for the off minute.

I was not one of them but I understand now after thinking about more of my past experiences.

that being said I too was confused by how these awesome changes ruined the job for some people being its dopamine more often. Some people don't enjoy the things we like and have more fun working around the job jank to discover flavor thru overcoming painpoints rather than playing renzokuken simulator.

[Reginald_Cain]

Anyway 2 jobs confirmed for 8.0 chain sickle tank with mystic knight inspired elemental infusions and barriers. second job is a phys ranged that juggles darts, bombs and wakka pain balls. It will also use a whip for a melee combo and mobility.

[Zairava]

Ok hear me out as someone else who liked the changes this patch, Gunbreaker was fine before, didnt NEED changes and some people liked having to manually fill bullets for the off minute.

I was not one of them but I understand now after thinking about more of my past experiences.

that being said I too was confused by how these awesome changes ruined the job for some people being its dopamine more often. Some people don't enjoy the things we like and have more fun working around the job jank to discover flavor thru overcoming painpoints rather than playing renzokuken simulator.

Okay, if that's the case then yeah I can get it.

Personally, I get to use 1-2-3 less and I get to use burst strike during downtime more. So it's a +1 for me. For me getting to do the things I liked about job to begin with more. I do think something could be done with burst strike though.

That being said...I do actually like when jobs have their own sort of jank or quirk to them (again, old DRK), but I guess I never really felt GNB before the update was "jank", just slower paced for the odd-minute. Between doing the most bare-bones form of builder spend and having the dopamine be every minute (and henceforth the FFVIII loveletter be even moreso, the gauge even gets the Aura color under bloodfest now), I'm obviously on the side of the latter.