New Dungeon is a return to bad habits

[Siniztor]

Another copy n paste dungeon with some boss mechs.. but its still tank pull group 1 to 2 (even at bare minimum item lvl) kill ... tank pull group 3 to 4 kill.. kill boss... rinse repeat.. I just want something new in dungeons we wait n get the same ole same ole Dungeons.. The fact at even at minimum item level there is really no chance for death with trash mobs (unless your healer n tank used jump potions and knows nothing about there class).. and having to repeat all these for tomes is boring

[CCheshire]

I've only seen one person die on the first boss, and it was because the AOE was so slow they tried to cram in way too many GCDs in before trying to hide. Being a greed lord basically.

I guess, what I'm trying to fix is what you just mentioned, that you don't care, and with reason. The dungeons are a giant nothing burger and an absolute unmemorable chore. Why should anyone care about such a soulless design?

So perhaps... add a soul to it, make it fun, instead of a waste of 20 minutes to just get your tomes. We are just so desensitized to it that quite frankly they could leave the same DREX for the entire 2 years of the expansion and it really wouldn't make a difference to most of us anyways.

Not all DT dungeons were fun, but for the first time in a LONG time #therewasanattempt at least on some of them and now they are going back to not even trying.

And yeah, people complained about them for sure. So as the developer exercising more effort and creativity gets you hate, so no wonder the design is so sterile noone feels anything. At least that way you can minimize criticism. It's a thankless job. But I wish they would power through it. If you try at your job, even if the loudest voices give you hate all the time, you at least know you designed something you put your heart into.

So which DT dungeons were that good tho? Also, it's always under 15 min for me w/human players and even less if everyone is good at DPS too. I know, since I've timed my mistwake dungeons for fun, since I've been there glam farming hell since release. Finally, I can't think of any DT dungeon that really broke the mold like all of them have some fun and less fun parts since EA.

[Ath192]

So which DT dungeons were that good tho? Also, it's always under 15 min for me w/human players and even less if everyone is good at DPS too. I know, since I've timed my mistwake dungeons for fun, since I've been there glam farming hell since release. Finally, I can't think of any DT dungeon that really broke the mold like all of them have some fun and less fun parts since EA.

None of them there that good, they were just slightly better. But you can tell they tried a bit harder in some. In terms of things that had more personality than the rest I.E. that I remember are:

The poison puzzle in tender valley
The carbuncle copy with the shifting stage in yuweyawata
yeah... the head guy in dreamborough, like annoying for sure, but I didn't forget him at least
The Tron motorcycle dude and the final boss who phase shifts in Vanguard were mildly entertaining

keep in mind difficulty isn't per se what I'm after, although yes, like, there has to be a decent risk of dying. It's more things with personality or whimsy.

If I can slide cast a few times to resolve the entire fight and can otherwise just sit there, eh.... maybe that's it actually, I guess I hate the feeling that I can just stand there and kill it the whole time.

Analyzing my own list I guess all those bosses had some level of puzzle solving or movement beyond you're regular slow aoe and dash dodging. The boss models and attacks were more unique graphically speaking as well, they're not monochromatic creatures with orbs like these last ones were.

This last dungeon I was like... Oh look, those are basically my mounts firing orbs with a purple hue. Anyways, those are the factors I suppose.

[Valence]

And yeah, people complained about them for sure. So as the developer exercising more effort and creativity gets you hate, so no wonder the design is so sterile noone feels anything. At least that way you can minimize criticism. It's a thankless job. But I wish they would power through it. If you try at your job, even if the loudest voices give you hate all the time, you at least know you designed something you put your heart into.

I beg to disagree. It wasn't really creative, it was just the same slop cranked up to obnoxious levels (Luigi's mansion says hello). First I actually lauded the "effort", but looking back now, it doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in their chosen direction because they keep confusing difficulty with engagement and fun.

Edit: but that illustrates perfectly the gigantic wedge there is between multiple sides of the playerbase. You want puzzles and more boss gimmicks that I personally find obnoxious or make me glaze over by sheer disinterest, while I do want engaging battle systems that we got slowly deprived over the years. I couldn't give a crap about their encounter design, it's just rote DDR slop. The less of it the better my sanity.

[CCheshire]

None of them there that good, they were just slightly better. But you can tell they tried a bit harder in some. In terms of things that had more personality than the rest I.E. that I remember are:

The poison puzzle in tender valley
The carbuncle copy with the shifting stage in yuweyawata
yeah... the head guy in dreamborough, like annoying for sure, but I didn't forget him at least
The Tron motorcycle dude and the final boss who phase shifts in Vanguard were mildly entertaining

keep in mind difficulty isn't per se what I'm after, although yes, like, there has to be a decent risk of dying. It's more things with personality or whimsy.

If I can slide cast a few times to resolve the entire fight and can otherwise just sit there, eh.... maybe that's it actually, I guess I hate the feeling that I can just stand there and kill it the whole time.

Analyzing my own list I guess all those bosses had some level of puzzle solving or movement beyond you're regular slow aoe and dash dodging. The boss models and attacks were more unique graphically speaking as well, they're not monochromatic creatures with orbs like these last ones were.

This last dungeon I was like... Oh look, those are basically my mounts firing orbs with a purple hue. Anyways, those are the factors I suppose.

I've always thought that the MSQ dungeons and even the Hard Mode before they were removed were a big focus on spectacle than like unique or creative mechanics as it's tied to content that they expected everyone to do once for story reasons which devs will save for current Ex's or like V&C content in the future. There's only so many diff boss types they can create, but at a level that they expected everyone like me being a casual to clear it to more high-end players who are bored with everything but they are still p niche group. Also, I would say that the new trials and new raid series is a better example for creative bosses and mechanics than dungeons, which are just the bread and butter of an MMO.

[Ath192]

I beg to disagree. It wasn't really creative, it was just the same slop cranked up to obnoxious levels (Luigi's mansion says hello). First I actually lauded the "effort", but looking back now, it doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in their chosen direction because they keep confusing difficulty with engagement and fun.

Edit: but that illustrates perfectly the gigantic wedge there is between multiple sides of the playerbase. You want puzzles and more boss gimmicks that I personally find obnoxious or make me glaze over by sheer disinterest, while I do want engaging battle systems that we got slowly deprived over the years. I couldn't give a crap about their encounter design, it's just rote DDR slop. The less of it the better my sanity.

Correct we disagree, I view it as more creative than what was there in Endwalker/SHB. Let's focus on your last statement though, all tab target MMOs are constrained by that nature, so if you view stage transformations, puzzles and movement as DDR slop and you want less of it, isn't that the entire game? I mean.. it's not going to turn into an FPS like call of duty or even like a different combat design like Elden ring or Oblivion....

So, go into specifics of what does this engaging battle system you want look like? Because by your statements, even if they add the full job depth and complexity we are wanting, the game is going to be DDR in nature (as tab target MMOs are).

And further more, if you don't care about encounter design, like you've stated, then why would it matter what we get to you? Unless you do care, but if you don't want gimmicks or movement, then does it mean you want a training dummy you can hit for 10 minutes? Help me understand you.

[Rithy255]

Snip

With ff14's current design as in order to make dungeons more challenging or exciting they need to spam annoying mechanics, I personally do like more stuff going on rather then endwalker, but I also don't think it's a solution for everyone.

I actually like the idea of going towards something similar to older dungeons but a bit more modernized theirs some things like dzemael darkhold which feel kinda annoying but theirs also possible room to make more fun exploratory dungeons that aren't simple hallways.

Further more I think theirs a massive disconnect between hardcore/casual content, you either get content that's Very easy or content that if you make one mistake you wipe, closest thing is EXT to a "midcore" and I'd argue that It really isn't midcore... What I'd like to see is scaling dungeons, Imagine if dungeons would have more mechanics, less guard rails but be more opt in but offer better rewards? Criterion somewhat "tried" this but it's difficult versions was too much of a jump, not to say it would be bad to keep that sort of challenge for people who wants that.

I think its a shame they can do a lot with ffxiv's dungeons to both please casual players, midcore and hardcore but they tend to just keep them to the same old formular or try to frustrate people with a sudden jump in difficulty when the game hasn't really prepared them or expected it from them that far into the game.

Perhaps a Difficulty setting such as
Story (on par with EW)
Normal (On Par with DT)
Hard (more harsher mechanics and more punishing then normal)
Expert (Unforgiving, less difficult then EXT but expect a lot of wipes, trial and error and learning)
Ext/Savage? (Maybe a super challenging version of those said dungeons)

I mean I have 0 problem with them reusing assets maybe 5 difficulty options is too much but if they're reusing stuff similar to how savage works then it could lead to a lot of replay ability, I think a solution that gives everyone something is better then just alienating people who didn't sign up for difficulty, while it doesn't bore people who want something more interesting.

[Aidorouge]

With ff14's current design as in order to make dungeons more challenging or exciting they need to spam annoying mechanics, I personally do like more stuff going on rather then endwalker, but I also don't think it's a solution for everyone.

I actually like the idea of going towards something similar to older dungeons but a bit more modernized theirs some things like dzemael darkhold which feel kinda annoying but theirs also possible room to make more fun exploratory dungeons that aren't simple hallways.

Further more I think theirs a massive disconnect between hardcore/casual content, you either get content that's Very easy or content that if you make one mistake you wipe, closest thing is EXT to a "midcore" and I'd argue that It really isn't midcore... What I'd like to see is scaling dungeons, Imagine if dungeons would have more mechanics, less guard rails but be more opt in but offer better rewards? Criterion somewhat "tried" this but it's difficult versions was too much of a jump, not to say it would be bad to keep that sort of challenge for people who wants that.

I think its a shame they can do a lot with ffxiv's dungeons to both please casual players, midcore and hardcore but they tend to just keep them to the same old formular or try to frustrate people with a sudden jump in difficulty when the game hasn't really prepared them or expected it from them that far into the game.

Perhaps a Difficulty setting such as
Story (on par with EW)
Normal (On Par with DT)
Hard (more harsher mechanics and more punishing then normal)
Expert (Unforgiving, less difficult then EXT but expect a lot of wipes, trial and error and learning)
Ext/Savage? (Maybe a super challenging version of those said dungeons)

I mean I have 0 problem with them reusing assets maybe 5 difficulty options is too much but if they're reusing stuff similar to how savage works then it could lead to a lot of replay ability, I think a solution that gives everyone something is better then just alienating people who didn't sign up for difficulty, while it doesn't bore people who want something more interesting.

People believe that "Quantum" is going to be Square-Enix's answer to this variable difficulty mode across all content, but so far it only comes in EX/Savage and higher, with no indication at all that its being implemented to accommodate players of lower skill level.

[ViinaS]

People believe that "Quantum" is going to be Square-Enix's answer to this variable difficulty mode across all content, but so far it only comes in EX/Savage and higher, with no indication at all that its being implemented to accommodate players of lower skill level.

I mean.... current dungeons are accomodating players of low skill level.
You can barely go any lower without putting people to sleep.

When every dungeon is
"use your aoes", "use your aoes", "use your skills and don't stand in bad", "use your aoes", "use your aoes", "use your skills and don't stand in bad", "use your aoes", "use your aoes", "use your skills and don't stand in bad"
and nothing else.

[Rithy255]

People believe that "Quantum" is going to be Square-Enix's answer to this variable difficulty mode across all content, but so far it only comes in EX/Savage and higher, with no indication at all that its being implemented to accommodate players of lower skill level.

Yes because SE thinks us saying we want scaling difficulty must mean we just want savage and ext.

Like dont get me wrong I find savage and ext fun sometimes but I want more content that isn't just turn off your brain nor do i wanna always have to watch a guide or trial and error for 6 hours.