Why is Warrior a healer in all but role?

[Rithy255]

Snip.

My issue with that is that the trinity system works fine with self healing, tanks are a issue because they've absurdly OP and not self healing (on its own), you could even balance heal self healing numbers and keep healers useful though I've made my point on that very clear I think for the game to be successful it should consider both class fantasy and healer gameplay Many games have balanced self healing and target healing functions on nonhealer roles to begin with.

Though I'd honestly be happy if we moved away from our current trinity system, I much prefer a more open ended and loose system that doesn't force jobs like white mage or scholar to be healer only, I much rather SE expand on what the "trinity system is"

You talk about Tanks being OP enough to replace healer, let me tell you do you think dungeons can't be done in a 3 dps 1 healer comp? even for speed clears, you could quite obviously run 1 healer, 1 dancer (to help maintain aggro on a dps), 2 dps because of how little damage output matters in the current dungeons, I mean you want to talk about jobs being irrelevant Ultimates have also been cleared without tanks recently, so we can't actually just blame one aspect of tanks being the root of why healers feel useless. It personally frustrates me, because we have to pretend like removing self healing from tanks to shb levels (or worse) is the only option and is the root of the trinity system problems, when theirs much larger things at play then just self healing if you fixed many of them self healing would become less of a problem. I at the end of the day want Healers to be fun

Frankly we shouldn't be looking at making tanks or healers like Shadowbringers, Stormblood, Heavensward or ARR we should be looking on how to rebalance them entirely including future encounters (which will get push back again, because people want to defend old content that's become a joke). I'll make it clear I do not justify current tank kits, they are ridiculous theirs no reasonable world where warrior would need any sort of healing in AOE situations, my point is very simple we do not need to go full on reversion on sustain, it would help but theirs way more other things you can do without removing identity from jobs like paladin and removing any sort of nuance with tank kits as your removing 1/3 of the ways to "tank damage" by removing sustain.

I don't know what else I can say frankly, because it feels like I want similar for the game with no overpowered tanks, but the issue people have is that sustain has become a big scary thing because of bloodwhetting so people would rather avoid trying to fix and balance it rather we must go back to shadowbringers! or insert X expansion, When I think tanks and healers can be so much more then what we have now and had in the past. Though all this wouldn't be a issue if ff14 wasn't so strict with job design and categories, all I can hope if they make another MMO is it's a much more loose system, maybe the problem is the game isn't intended for me, I know it certainly wouldn't be if I couldn't feel like a "paladin"

[Hyperia]

Tl;dr - (1)Make sure the trinity functions well, then; (2)Tweak numbers accordingly to fulfill XYZ elements.

It has become so bad on tank healing, in dungeons, that I generally don’t heal a tank as they sustain so much in their own, I just dps away and use an instant heal if a dps gets some splash damage from the pull. Sadly, this is the hard truth and even on bosses, a regen at most is all that is needed.

I am so used to tanks getting low and bouncing back to full health that when they die, it becomes one of those blink moments where I go, huh? What happened? As a healer, how and I supposed to know when I really need to heal a tank and when I shouldn’t? Don’t ask me to keep track of all of their cool downs, thats not happening. I either have to overheal the tank and get called a Sylphie or let them die and get called a greedy dps healer.

A tank should have a slow predictable health decline when their cool downs are used properly, they shouldn’t be able to fully heal up on their own. Healers are the ones who should bring them back up to full health, it’s that simple.

[Azurarok]

Slight tangent but were Tank base defenses closer to melees back in like SB? Base as in just by gearing and passives and not counting their mitigation skills and stances. Also wondering how close MNK was to Tank defenses when they were in Fists of Earth.

Been thinking they might've baked the old stance defenses into them in ShB and then started (somewhat) balancing around that, making the other roles worse at backup tanking than they used to be.

[Rithy255]

My question is how much should a tanks health deplete during the course of one minute on average of a single target fight.

In theory Tank Sustain should be balanced where you will lose HP at a rate that you cannot recover from without help, obviously with how FF14 is currently designed you have tons of mitigation and take very little damage, while most tanks have a significant amount of sustain which leads to healers not being needed

A good example of balancing sustain rates for encounter + damage, would be if per minute a tank took around 100% of their hp (with some mitigation) and only had the tools to recover around 40-50% of their health per minute then they would run out without any sort of help, at a rate like that if a boss took longer then 2 minutes and you had no other healing on you, you'd not be able to self sustain, Though 2 minutes is likely a bit too long to last without a healer, so you'd either shift down the sustain numbers more or how much damage the tank takes, either one would reach the desired result though with the exception that making the damage too high would overwhelm players.

Current FF14 You could likely win dungeon boss fights without any healing numbers just because of how much mitigation and shielding tanks have, This is the problem people will have to think about once you tackle sustain.

Though theirs other things to consider such as AOE damage, avoidable damage ect, I think it's a balancing act where you dont want to make damage spike too much but you also want to avoid low damage output because it makes for a very boring time for healers and tanks.

Despite ranting about how sustain isn't the issue it does add a extra layer of balancing and taking it away would be a easy SE thing to do, other then to ignore healers outright like for the past 5 years, so tanks get to roleplay as immortal super protagonist and healers get to be glarebot5000.

[Absurdity]

Slight tangent but were Tank base defenses closer to melees back in like SB? Base as in just by gearing and passives and not counting their mitigation skills and stances. Also wondering how close MNK was to Tank defenses when they were in Fists of Earth.

Been thinking they might've baked the old stance defenses into them in ShB and then started (somewhat) balancing around that, making the other roles worse at backup tanking than they used to be.

On paper that's exactly what they did. They gave all tanks the Tank Mastery trait in Shadowbringers, which is supposed to reduce all damage taken by 20% and increase damage done based on strength.

However, the trait was lying from the start. That damage increase based on strength was actually just a flat out nerf to all tank damage, as it changed the formula for damage caluclation on tanks to be inherently lower than that for damage dealers.

It might be entirely possible that it did make DPS worse at taking hits by adjusting all enemy damage to account for those 20% damage mitigation at all times. Because for tanks themselves this trait is essentially a placebo, you never felt a reduction in unmitigated damage compared to pre-Shadowbringers.

[Hyperia]

Now that I think about it, I remembered that jobs are balanced not for dungeons or trials but for ultimate level fights. All of this mitigation and self heals make more sense there but because of ultimate balancing, everything else is terribly broken.

I wish they had tuned jobs for normal content and adjusted ultimates to work within that tuning. This is the problem they had with content design, oops it’s all savage. Why? Because they make savage first and then try to turn it down to normal levels instead of the opposite. They really should make normal first and then crank it up to savage. Crazy idea eh?

[Daralii]

Now that I think about it, I remembered that jobs are balanced not for dungeons or trials but for ultimate level fights. All of this mitigation and self heals make more sense there but because of ultimate balancing, everything else is terribly broken.

I wish they had tuned jobs for normal content and adjusted ultimates to work within that tuning. This is the problem they had with content design, oops it’s all savage. Why? Because they make savage first and then try to turn it down to normal levels instead of the opposite. They really should make normal first and then crank it up to savage. Crazy idea eh?

Except there have also been no healer clears of FRU thanks to blue healers, Curing Waltz, the DT role action traits, etc.

[IOwn92FCHouses]

Now that I think about it, I remembered that jobs are balanced not for dungeons or trials but for ultimate level fights. All of this mitigation and self heals make more sense there but because of ultimate balancing, everything else is terribly broken.

I wish they had tuned jobs for normal content and adjusted ultimates to work within that tuning. This is the problem they had with content design, oops it’s all savage. Why? Because they make savage first and then try to turn it down to normal levels instead of the opposite. They really should make normal first and then crank it up to savage. Crazy idea eh?

The fact that you think they balance only for ultimate is incredibly cute. Tell me, if that's the case, why is bringing Viper over any other Melee, or bringing SMN over any other caster, into FRU still griefing after a couple of balance patches?

Hint: it's because your assumption doesn't reflect reality. ;3

[Azurarok]

They definitely do make certain adjustments for specific content, e.g. making Asylum/Earthly Star/Sacred Soil enormous for the giant arenas in EW, mainly for TOP. They most likely expanded the range on all aoe heals to match WHM's in 7.3 for whatever Ultimate they're working on right now as well.

The dps balancing likely have Savage at the centerpiece, going by how they had zero thoughts balancing for FRU's downtime.

[Supersnow845]

On paper that's exactly what they did. They gave all tanks the Tank Mastery trait in Shadowbringers, which is supposed to reduce all damage taken by 20% and increase damage done based on strength.

However, the trait was lying from the start. That damage increase based on strength was actually just a flat out nerf to all tank damage, as it changed the formula for damage caluclation on tanks to be inherently lower than that for damage dealers.

It might be entirely possible that it did make DPS worse at taking hits by adjusting all enemy damage to account for those 20% damage mitigation at all times. Because for tanks themselves this trait is essentially a placebo, you never felt a reduction in unmitigated damage compared to pre-Shadowbringers.

Tank mastery never made any sense to me other than being a hidden way to make only tanks allowed to tank (I’m not sending out my usual “tanks are always the problem” here I promise)

Like what is any other explanation than “bump inherent defence up 20% then make all enemies do 20% more damage” than we only want tanks to tank. I’m assuming it also changed how damage calculation works (I know it’s a silent nerf) because they wanted to remove the effects of tanks using the “wrong” stat, but the skill is so weird

Tank mastery is such a strange skill