Why is Warrior a healer in all but role?

[Reginald_Cain]

I can't with the tRiNiTy hyper fixation like this is some mmo from 1999. I think hyper specialization is outdated and boring. Everyone except rithy255 are actually control freaks. This is obviously not about balance, but the fact most of you want control on when people live and die. Having exclusive access to a party wide res full heal limit break just isn't clutch and cool enough anymore I guess.

I think the battle content in bozja is the best in the game has because almost every job can be played in any role and effectively. Instead adding an archaic and restrictive tRiNiTy system how about we move towards something more flexible that let's people be both the role and flavor of job they want.
Final fantasy games with job systems after ff5 emphasize player choice in customization and mix and matching cross class skills.

[hydralus]

I can't with the tRiNiTy hyper fixation like this is some mmo from 1999. I think hyper specialization is outdated and boring. Everyone except rithy255 are actually control freaks. This is obviously not about balance, but the fact most of you want control on when people live and die. Having exclusive access to a party wide res full heal limit break just isn't clutch and cool enough anymore I guess.

I think the battle content in bozja is the best in the game has because almost every job can be played in any role and effectively. Instead adding an archaic and restrictive tRiNiTy system how about we move towards something more flexible that let's people be both the role and flavor of job they want.
Final fantasy games with job systems after ff5 emphasize player choice in customization and mix and matching cross class skills.

Guild Wars 2 does this.

[Supersnow845]

I can't with the tRiNiTy hyper fixation like this is some mmo from 1999. I think hyper specialization is outdated and boring. Everyone except rithy255 are actually control freaks. This is obviously not about balance, but the fact most of you want control on when people live and die. Having exclusive access to a party wide res full heal limit break just isn't clutch and cool enough anymore I guess.

I think the battle content in bozja is the best in the game has because almost every job can be played in any role and effectively. Instead adding an archaic and restrictive tRiNiTy system how about we move towards something more flexible that let's people be both the role and flavor of job they want.
Final fantasy games with job systems after ff5 emphasize player choice in customization and mix and matching cross class skills.

Bozja is actually built around everyone doing whatever they want because the skills are actually designed that way

If you want to go in that direction than go the whole 9 yards

Stopping at “everyone does the healers job for them” then shouting “but Bozja” when healers ask to go in one direction or the other is just stupid. If you are fine to be a better healer than the healer in a dungeon then you should be equally fine with the healer being a better tank than you in a normal raid. But nobody seems to want to go that way. Healers are sick of being stuck in the middle. And if we went this direction half the classes wouldn’t even work. If you want Bozja in all content then take it all the damn way, where is my SCH provoke

Regardless i personally don’t want that style of class.

[Absurdity]

Tank mastery never made any sense to me other than being a hidden way to make only tanks allowed to tank (I’m not sending out my usual “tanks are always the problem” here I promise)

Like what is any other explanation than “bump inherent defence up 20% then make all enemies do 20% more damage” than we only want tanks to tank. I’m assuming it also changed how damage calculation works (I know it’s a silent nerf) because they wanted to remove the effects of tanks using the “wrong” stat, but the skill is so weird

Tank mastery is such a strange skill

That's the most likely explanation for why it exists.
The Ramuh incident showed all the way back in ARR that they didn't want non-tanks to do a tank's job.
And the stealth nerf to damage scaling was likely to further prevent "man-mode" clears from back in Heavensward, since the old formula allowed tanks to do as much damage as an average DPS.

Guild Wars 2 does this.

Guild Wars 2 was built to not follow the trinity system from the ground up.
Almost everything can be dodged by either just moving out of the danger zone or using the dedicated dodge button and every class can build into either being more tanky, having more self-healing or dealing more damage.
But you also never had all of those at the same time.

And even Guild Wars 2 moved closer towards a trinity in more recent years, with specilizations and builds specifically for healing and buffing the party.

[Supersnow845]

Let’s say we went ahead with this “make everything like Bozja” approach. How would that even work amongst the game design of 14? Do we retain broad roles and allow everyone to break out of their roles whenever they want? Okay but what if I queue as a SCH and want to tank but the tank also wants to tank. Or we queue up as 2/2/4 but all 8 players want to DPS?

Okay let’s say that we removed roles and just said 8 people queue lets go you can all have everything, what if nobody of those 8 people wants to take on the broad ranking role? Do we just allow the boss to ping pong around to whoever happens to be in their burst the entire time?

Okay well what if we made all 8 players play like the current tanks; functionally self sufficient. At that point how do you create challenge for anyone who is semi competant because now everyone is immortal? If you bump up damage to compensate for this increased immortality you’ve achieved nothing at all

Retrofitting a trinity game into a non trinity game would be a nightmare and making it a “soft trinity” only works if every role can have something of every other role, right now nobody can tank except the tanks and neither support does effective damage to be considered “off DPS” as all content is balanced around the supports doing damage anyway

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I cracked when somebody brought up about hypothetical situations non healers potentially getting pissy over healers getting their nukes like Oracle, Misery, etc while at the same time Bozja is being brought up over and over.

Because I recall vividly moments where people in CLL, DRN, & Dalriada getting upset when their healer brings out their Profane setup. And to a lesser degree by miles; tanks who bring out their Irregular setup when these two roles are the de facto DPS monsters outside SAM on Duelist+Banner, which are contained to DRN/S.

Not against the idea, but the notion of people ‘never getting upset’ when other role steps outside their traditional norm just amuses me to no end.

[ForsakenRoe]

I have no idea what 'Remove the trinity' means in practice. The only thing that comes to mind would be that any Job can do any role. How on earth are some Jobs going to pull that off? How's a VPR going to be a Healer? How's a BLM going to Tank? Does it come at the cost of their main-role effectiveness? EG, if I were to suggest a RPR that 'reaps' life force from the enemy, and then redirects it as healing to an ally (preferably very viscerally, shields of bones, bloody VFX on spells, etc), A: is that allowed in this hypothetical system, and B: does it mean that the RPR would have less damage as a consequence for this additional HPS output?

It also brings up the question of hotbar space. Would the DPS have to lose damage buttons to make room for Tank/Healer related buttons they might not want to even use (maybe they're DPS-only players)? At which point, would it not be better to do something more like SCH/SMN, where there's 2 Jobs with seperate roles, but they share a level? In which case, we're actually keeping the Trinity after all

Also, where does BLU fit in all of this? Would it be allowed in current content if the Trinity were abolished? Or is the fact that it can oneshot dungeon trash mobs that are 10 levels below you, still considered 'too OP' in a Trinity-less paradigm?

[Rithy255]

Anyone could be a Tank/Healer through a system similar to a mix variant dungeons or Bozja while I don't think would be perfect would unironically work better then whatever we got right now.

FF14 doesn't offer a variety of healers it offers the same basic archtype of magic only backline, which because of ff14's very basic fight designs will likely stay the same, but you can obviously work around that with a job who has ranged options that are only slightly worse (hmm I wonder what tank has that).

Perhaps the best way to implement a customizable system similar to bozja would be to restrict it from effecting savage+ content, so people don't have to cry about meta and ruin the idea of customizability existing. You could also have specializations and builds some jobs could already very easily fit a tank or healer by changing up a few skills and putting damage down onto a reasonable level.

A way to do this is a massive overhaul to the materia system, tied to job stone where you can change job skills to have different effects, ways to add in skills and passives that effect one aspect of your job, lets say damage gets reduced by you gain more defensives and access to a enmity stance, You could even do stuff to DPS such as black mage to have longer cast times again.

Though at the end of the day the only issue is the playerbase hates any sort of customization a lot of hardcore players will only pick whats the "Meta" rather then whats fun then people will complain about illusion of choice so instead of having any choice we go back to very strict and standardized job design.

Edit:

Retrofitting a trinity game into a non trinity game would be a nightmare and making it a “soft trinity” only works if every role can have something of every other role, right now nobody can tank except the tanks and neither support does effective damage to be considered “off DPS” as all content is balanced around the supports doing damage anyway

I have to point out anyone can tank inside a dungeon, ignoring the fact ive cleared dungeons with 4 dps (no rdm or smn) 3dps and 1 Healer would work perfectly fine in current dungeons, you'd likely want a dancer and have to be careful about enmity but you sure can clear content without a tank and have DPS who can effectively tank.

Further more didn't they clear fru without tanks? I think it's safe to say you can tank on a dps, it's way less effective then bringing a tank (just like it is for healers) but wasn't the argument it's a problem it can even be done...

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Tankless FRU clear only reinforces the notion that SE clearly misunderstands how to implement the trinity in proper fashion and only use its name to say "Hey we got tank healer and DPS! One gets to do the most damage, one gets to do all 3, and one gets to be the midling that does less damage than the rest of the role + overhealing!" - how exactly are the roles purposes being effectively ingrained into the content design when that still happens even in the hardest content? If FFXIV wants to forgo the trinity, then how about letting healer become a true green DPS and outdps other roles like WHM in ShB competing against the tanks except GNB? I sure recall people being clearly unhappy that their Glares being more powerful vs WAR's Fell Cleave & how PLDs were unhappy from a simple fact that casting Clemency was more efficient than asking the WHM to cast Cure II lol.

Sarcasm aside, pick a lane, SE.

[Supersnow845]

:

I have to point out anyone can tank inside a dungeon, ignoring the fact ive cleared dungeons with 4 dps (no rdm or smn) 3dps and 1 Healer would work perfectly fine in current dungeons, you'd likely want a dancer and have to be careful about enmity but you sure can clear content without a tank and have DPS who can effectively tank.

Further more didn't they clear fru without tanks? I think it's safe to say you can tank on a dps, it's way less effective then bringing a tank (just like it is for healers) but wasn't the argument it's a problem it can even be done...

This is in regards to a potential removal of the trinity in favour of a so called soft trinity. What skills do any of the DPS or healers have that help them tank better or more effectively than just everyone doing damage and agro pongponging around who does the most damage? None of them have an pseudo agro control, at most some have some personal defensives which can be used as (bad) pseudo tank buster CD’s

My point isn’t is it possible to do 1H3D/4D dungeons it’s that what in this theoretical change would you give to healers/DPS to make them as effective at ignoring the tanks as the current tanks are at ignoring the healers

No tanking FRU was only possible with PCT’s bonkers damage allowing you to just sacrifice a DPS every time a tankbuster came around. I still don’t think it should be remotely possible but it’s a different example than no healing an ultimate because no healing an ultimate involves the other roles healing in place of the healers. No tanking an ultimate just involves throwing bodies at tank mechanics using PCT’s (old) bonkers damage as compensation

You can look back through that old clear, nobody was “tanking” in the sense of being a tank. They just threw bodies at tank mechanics. Note this doesn’t change my opinion that “no x’ing an ultimate” just shows how deeply broken the game’s combat system in regards to how combat affects the jobs