Why is Warrior a healer in all but role?

[Rithy255]

Snip.

Paladins sustain just outright isn't as bad as warrior and easier to solve without changing much, aka removing all of the healing from magic attacks, Warrior has Healing tied to every single of its cooldowns at massive potencies (a lot of data such as savage fights only show pld a bit behind because your generally going to use your attacks regardless while warrior will save a lot of their defensives for when needed) Paladins self healing is absurd don't get me wrong but doesn't hold a candle to a warrior who uses all of their sustain constantly.

Personally I enjoyed 6.0 paladin the most because i liked having that complicated rotation while having a lot of self healing tools, though I'll admit the magic attack healing just isn't needed strictly speaking they didn't and shouldn't have added as much sustain as they did, I don't know but perhaps you wouldn't want any at all which is your opinion but adding some amount of sustain to the one tank who didn't have any despite being the tank identity most related to healing.

Also it depends on your definition of a "tiny amount" I think 2000 potency worth of self healing per minute (or two Terta uses) is a acceptable and fair amount to have on a tank if it's their Only form of sustain because I fully agree with you that PLD shouldn't be able to keep both healing on magic attacks and holyshreltron/intervention (I count both as they're similar skills that cost the same amount of charge difference being one goes on a target the other doesn't) for a tank hp bar that's at most half your hp healed per minute which shouldn't be a problem.

Why wouldn't you grumble at other tanks too? Paladin isn't the only one with sustain, Gunbreaker for one has a insane amount of sustain I'd argue even better then Paladins because you can control it's output more and it has a burst heal excog rather then a regen, the main difference between paladin is that it has a AOE heal/shield so in savage fights along with passive healing it outputs a lot more on sites that show healing rates for tanks. Dark knight is also really good in AOE and I barely need to heal Dark knights despite them having the least amount of self healing, because a big part of it is the mass amounts of mitigation.

My problem is and it goes back around to what I've said if you want to look at tank kits, great awesome lets reduce down everything rather then looking at one thing thats a problem, you seen skills like Guardian? now that's POWER creep. Lets make these skills weaker along side reducing down sustain and the passive 20% mitigation tanks have, rather then just taking one aspect out of tanks kits entirely is all i've been saying.

Lastly yeah SE doesn't read anything here, we're all just screaming at a wall hoping changes happen because the game is in such a bad state, Though I think if they were to realistically listen to any feedback they would unironically remove sustain and leave everything else the same, that's literally how they balance things through major expansions is remove something because some person complained about it and then call it a day. Rather then making bigger steps and changes not to just make tank kits reasonable, but to add more fun stuff to healers aswell as the active need to actually heal.

[Valence]

Not really because changing damage profiles doesn't just automatically kill DPS or healers the fact I have to say this is ludicrous, but because I'm not 100% on board with deleting all self heals I suppose any argument I make here will be seen as a issue with healers, because they cannot genuinely comprehend that self healing isn't really the issue in of its own. More damage would mean more consistent damage output and more single target damage on the tank from the boss and pulls, which counters your idea that it would mean healers/dps would just automatically die, which makes no sense in the first place.

So, let me understand this right, you want to dramatically increase boss damage output, but not touch to the raid wide AoEs then? Just the boss single target attacks?

Okay, sure, but as I think I've already stated somewhere else, I don't understand the logic still. We used to have tanks standing at 4 in defense, with random dungeons doing like 2 in terms of threat, now tanks have been cranked up to 10 so obviously nothing can even remotely threaten them, so you'd want to increase trash and boss damage to 5+ in order to threaten them again. Then I'm asking, what have we gained? Nothing. You've just made everything more lopsided and just kept a dividing factor of 2 between AAR/HW/SB and your idea and you now have come full circle for nothing. The only roles that are left behind are DPS and healers, even if the damage you increase doesn't directly concern their survival (if you say it's just boss single target damage and trash damage).

You do know that tanks were also able to self heal before they became absolutely unhinged in EW+ right (yes obviously, you say it later in your post)? Difference is, it required skill, and had more in built limitations than "I just press a stupid button every 25s like a monkey and I get 3 benedictions" - I'm not saying that's what you want, but I really don't understand your logic.

Tanks should be able to heal themselves, again the fact you think any amount of self healing is a issue

I'll stop you right there. I never said this and I think you're not reading what I write.

Though I'd be interested if the devs tried to move more away from the strict trinity system as I think it's become a problem with how this game has evolved Jobs are too restricted in one direction if we go back to tanks can only do "x, y and z" ect. It would also encourage them to give healer jobs such as white mage and scholar more fun dps rotations while also not making them healer exclusive, though this is all cope from me.

At some point that's another solution, since it seems unlikely they're gonna backpedal and suddenly start to reintroduce actual roles for tanks like enmity management, resource management (notably regarding their self healing), enemy positioning, etc. I would have balked at the idea before pvp showed me otherwise: tanks aren't more tanky than other jobs natively, they may have 5k HP more but they don't have innate mitigation more than anybody else. What they do have however, is strong defensive tools that they have to use at the proper moment, and depending on the tank, by also using them on the correct targets (notably WAR with the self healing from damage dealt). Suddenly you get tanks that can take damage like everybody else, that require healing like everybody else, unless they're using their defensives at specifically chosen times.

[Rithy255]

Snip.

Firstly sorry for misunderstanding your point on healing as I saw the part where you said "Tanks shouldn't be able to heal themselves well" and took that as you not wanting any sustain at all, despite you mentioning sustain you were fine with right after I must have missed that because I've been talking over and over about tank sustain and I tend to miss sentences and stuff sometimes (because of dyslexia lol)

I want boss to output quite a bit more yeah, rather then more higher spiked damage AOE's that dps/healers can't survive i'd rather just more frequent instances of AOE damage and stuff such as damage over time debuffs, This doesn't have to be a insane amount as I've said serval times (if you seen some of my posts here) that I think we also need to tune down tank kits dramatically in addition to making fights deal more damage in general, you can want both to happen, while any normal game that would generally put some strain on tanks, with FF14 tanks are so absurdly strong that you're going to have to do a lot more then just tune down one aspect, I also think healers should be generally healing more including AOE, which nerfing tanks doesn't really change that.

Of course i know that SHB had sustain that was reasonable... it's kind of the whole point, I want tanks to go towards a middled approach where they have reasonable sustain, I much rather sustain be more closer to shadowbringers then the insane amounts of sustain most tanks have in Endwalker, I just don't want paladin to lose all its healing again for example, I don't mind the excog on gunbreaker if its significantly weaker and regen goes back to 200 potency, I think Warrior just needs something because yikes that job is actually insane I'm not defending it's level of sustain at all. I also think tank mitigations (100% the passive inbuilt mitigation) need to be looked at because I don't think tanks should be these uber defensive sustain demi gods.

I honestly don't know where we would fundamentally disagree 100% on tuning back tanks kits to be more on line with other roles, my whole point was I'm pushing back on this idea that skills with some sustain are automatically bad because they're "free" No one was saying Aurora was a insane broken sustain tool because it was free back in shadowbringers for a reason because some level of sustain or target healing is acceptable just not too much like endwalker+ tanks

It's funny because you could genuinely replace Tank & Healer with a few variant actions, Variant dungeons is a pretty solid proof of concept of this, I don't think we have to go to that direction, but I don't really like the idea of a strict trinity system nor do i think aggro management is going to ever be added back, so honestly rather then keeping healers as these one button dps who throw out a heal once every year I do like the idea into making them into actual jobs... PVP is a example of pretty much erasing the trinity system and people generally like it, not to say I would 100% be on board but I can't deny it could lead to the tank/healer roles feeling a lot better if they aren't going to bother in trying to fix them in the first place.

[Valence]

I think I mostly agree, but I still do prefer HW's self sustain systems over SHB's, because SHB is precisely when they started making WAR go absolutely overboard with the predecessor of Bloodwhetting (Nascent), which fortunately was still tied to damage dealt like it used to with bloodbath so it still retained some skill expression and it was impossible to line up 3 benedictions back to back for every Nascent since you'd only have your burst every minute, but it still meant you could do it every minute, which was already seen as absolutely broken back then compared to all three other tanks. HW's sustains were very interesting because they required resource management (Dark Arts Abyssal) and/or good damage application on targets (Bloodbath Berserk or Dark Arts Abyssal).

For instance, I don't want PLD to lose all of its self healing either even thought it could be its actual identity to rely on other things, but I do want tank defensives to involve some thought process and require some skill play again. Current PLD's self healing doesn't do that more than WAR's current braindead Bloodwhetting does. You just self heal by going through your big buttons on PLD. It's just passive. Cast your Confiteor combo and that's a bonus.

Say I mentioned pvp tanks above because not only outside of their defensives they're just a regular job with a bit more HP, but also because using their defensives well isn't a given and about pressing a win button like a monkey. If we take PLD again, I actually like what pvp Holy Sheltron does because not only it grants a barrier (like the pve guardian) but allows you to increase your mitigation when being under pressure and taking damage, but works differently if you're not taking damage by blowing up in the face of the enemy and increasing your attack damage (which is similar to pve off tanking). This requires you to think when you want to use it or keep it, between offense or defense. You also have another tool that's all about self healing which is Imperator, and landing it on as many targets as possible, or at least the most likely target for your team,i s a big deal because anybody hitting said target(s) will self heal a little from it (and it stacks from multiple instances/AoE). Then lately you have some self heals in the form of holy spirit and Confiteor and those have range considerations a bit like in pve/uptime.

Obviously you wouldn't want to copy 1:1 sheltron to pve because people would just go "just make the PLD off tank because it gains damage from doing it". But then again, perhaps if all tanks had the same kind of considerations, then this wouldn't happen anyway, you know?

[Aravell]

I just want to point out in this discussion that, while self-sustain has always been part of the tank role, it did always come at a cost. Clemency was not seen as total garbage when it was introduced because WAR and DRK also had to drop their damage for full access to their heals. Not to mention that self-sustaining wasn't infinite back then, WAR didn't have a 25s CD flat potency heal button, they instead had access to more limited healing like Bloodbath which was a 90s(?) CD and scaled off their damage done (which Nascent Flash also did back in ShB), also Inner Beast (which required the -20% damage of Defiance) and Equilibrium.

Now, in the case of people arguing that tanks don't infringe upon the healers in savage, that's not true. In earlier expansions, if both tanks took a buster, the healers had to act, whether that be a pre-casted Adlo or a Cure/Benefic II after, but in the current game, if a PLD and a WAR cross-mitigate with their short CDs, the healer does not need to act because they'll just heal each other up. Also worth noting that Shake it Off having a barrier, a heal and a regen attached to it means the WHM had less reason to heal. So yes, though you see the numbers as small, it does cut into the required healing that healers need to do, so saying tank healing doesn't change anything for healers in savage+ is false.

[RedLolly]

My stance is that tank self-heals should only be SLIGHTLY better than DPS job options, while maintaining their mitigation tools and current stat spreads. Then you have a selection of beefy jobs with good DPS and tools to slow down incoming damage.

The issue is healers are being made redundant in every piece of content because tanks are so well equipped to keep themselves alive without help and, despite each having a mountain of healing and damage mitigating tools themselves, healers hardly get to use them and are stuck spamming their simplistic DPS options that are supposed to be simple filler.

We're on page 15 and the fundamental issue is TANKS are the outliers. Tanks are NOT meant to be nearly invincible in barely competent hands. That is the crux of a trinity job system, why healers are so mad, but-

Warrior is badly tuned, has been for years. But it's super fun to play so the devs don't want to change it.

That's really all there is to it.

[ForsakenRoe]

Lots of words

You keep misunderstanding the point. You're acting like the Tanks, under the iron fisted rule of someone like me, would lose their self healing and have it replaced with nothing. I personally would not do that, I would replace the selfhealing, with self-barriers of equal potency. If you're timing your self-mitigative CDs like Bloodwhetting or Sheltron correctly, you would still benefit from the same amount of 'self sustain'. Moreso, in fact, because you'd have a larger shield going into a heavy hit. What is currently 'PLD has a 15%+15% mit from Sheltron' would become '15%+15% mit, plus 4 layers of 250p barrier, one of which is used to protect you from the tankbuster'. You would be more tanky, not less, so long as you have the bare minimum of 'can time a CD correctly'. In fact, the reason that Sheltron was changed from 'Guaranteed to block' to direct damage Mitigation, was because PLD was getting folded by Tankbusters in Abyssos that applied a Bleed (with the Bleed ignoring the damage reduction effect of Blocking). While the HOT effect of Holy Sheltron also helps to counteract those Bleeds (by healing the damage the Bleed deals), a 'layered Self-Barrier' akin to Haima would fulfill the same purpose

Since you're on about PLD a lot, here's the breakdown of how it'd be changed (according to me):

Guardian: It already applies a very large Barrier, so it doesn't need to be changed. It is balanced by the fact that the barrier has a duration, and it's a 2min CD

Holy Spirit/Holy Circle/Confiteor/Blade of Faith, Truth, Valor: Each would apply a 400p self-barrier called 'Sanctifiying Light', lasting 12s.
Using another action that triggers Sanctifying Light adds the new 400p to the existing remaining Sanctifying Light buff, and refreshes the duration back to 12s.

Holy Sheltron: Adds 4 stacks of 'Bastion of Light'. Each stack is a 250p barrier, and when one is fully consumed, the next layer takes its place.
Bastion of Light has a 12s duration. Using Holy Sheltron while Bastion of Light stacks remain adds another 4 stacks, and refreshes the duration back to 12s.

Intervention: Same as Holy Sheltron, but gives the stacks of Bastion of Light to the target instead of yourself. They behave the same way as the ones granted by Holy Sheltron.

Divine Veil: Effect changed from '10% of PLD's Max HP, plus 300p heal' to '25% of PLD's Max HP'.
Basically, turn the 300p heal into a Barrier, then combine it with the existing barrier effect of the action. 25% might be too high/too low, I'm estimating, so tune numbers as required

Clemency: Stays as a 1000p heal. It's GCD and costs damage to use, so it's not often used anyway, but it's a nice tool for certain situations.
With similar changes across the whole Tank role, I assume Clemency alone would not be enough to enable 'Healerless Ultimate clear' runs and the like

Heck, I'll go even further. Give Cover a bonus effect, where the PLD and the Covered ally get given a 300p barrier upon execution. Give Intervention a bonus effect, where if the PLD has Guardian active, it also transfers 25% of the Guardian's Will Barrier (250p) to the target, along with the 10% mitigation bonus (which is 25% of the 40% effect of Guardian). Give Blade of Honor the same Sanctifying Light proc as the other Blade actions. And the best part is, I can suggest all of these things safe in the knowledge that it's all still going to be balanced/not OP, because they all have durations, they expire if left unconsumed by damage.



Side note, PLD did not need the selfhealing attached to Holy Spirit/Confiteor combo when EW came out. Yes, it did not have an ability in its basic combo that restored HP like Storm's Path or Souleater, but it made up for that in a unique, thematic, PLD-specific way: Blocking. It didn't heal HP back, it mitigated more of the autoattack damage coming in. But, people complained after seeing WAR could use Nascent in SHB to heal for 'sometimes a lot and sometimes an ok amount' (plus Equilibrium being un-tied from Tank Stance), and the new GNB with Aurora on a 45s CD, and they complained that 'why can't PLD also selfheal like that', not realizing that it sustained itself in a less visible way

[Rithy255]

The problem is I do not want to be more tanky do you not understand that? I don't like having absurd mitigation values just as much as I don't like having absurd self heal values on warrior and paladin's magic attacks, Tanks need to be overall less defensive in my opinion because the idea that they should be immortal mitigation gods just doesn't make sense, You'd barely be healing as a healer if tanks had shields (even if they expire) because this game has very predictable damage profiles outgoing auto attacks especially in casual content aren't enough to make healers to acitvely heal, they may throw out a ogcd heal once per minute but that's not fun and exciting healer gameplay.

I'll make my stance clear I want Healers to actively Heal a lot more, I want tanks to feel less defensive, heck if we take away some of the absurd mitigation tools and nerf them they should go to buffing skills like aqua veil, so it gives back some more responsibility to the healers in working together to keep your tank and party alive as that is my ideal, Tank and Healers should be treated as supportive roles that work off each other rather then both being overbloated with heavy mitigation kits or heavy healing kits (or both in most modern tanks cases).

If It was my ideal I'd go further and even say I'd love tanks to become way more supportive rather then selfish immortal gods, but I know here people will disagree with that and I can understand to a extent that some will feel like tanks will be overstepping on what a healer does even more.

I also want to note for consistencies sake I think Tank damage and healer damage need to be more inline with each other, Healer should gain more damage skills while removing some of the healing "bloat" tanks should really have less mitigation (Also healing) and I think theirs room to expand on their rotations, while keeping them as active support roles.

Finally I just want to say I don't think making healers useful for the sake of it is the right way to go, which would be in line with your changes, because healers might be more required (at least in ultimates) My personal wants is that they're more fun to play in general not just some tacked on after thought that's there because well every 2 minutes you need to press your AOE heal and time to go back to glare spam... I really am against the idea of forcing healers to work in their current design and form, rather then going through things and rebalancing tanks and healers power levels as a general, because I think healers and tanks deserve better rather then bare minimum lazy design we've been getting starting with SHB.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Honestly if it were up to me, the degree of sustain I'd like to see with the tanks would be back somewhere to their ShB sustainability with some tweaks, which entails the following loosely:

All tanks:

• Remove Rampart's lv94 trait and revert their 40% mits back to its 30% variant.
• Give them all Convalescence to compensate the loss of their healing action received trait. I personally never liked that they're combined to Rampart.

PLD:

• Keeps Clemency as their situational sustain while letting them heal 50% more potency under Requiescat/Imperator.
• Remove Holy Shelltron HoT and replace it with 4s 400p barrier that buffs Shield Bash into a conal dps increase AoE if the barrier breaks.
• Turn Holy Circle/Spirit/Spellblade juices into stackable personal shields ONLY when they're cast under Requiescat/Imperator window.
• Remove Intervention's HoT. Move the HoT (placed on target ally) into Cover which now has 60s cooldown.
• Idk about Divine Veil but I'd probably combine both the cure potency and shield potency to make one bigger barrier. No, I definitely did not miss the ability requiring GCD heal to proc while also NOT shielding the PLD.

WAR:

• Revert back Raw Intuition (20% mit for 6s at 25s cd) and Nascent Flash (same as today but cure potency scales on damage dealt) to its ShB iteration.
• Bloodwhetting is now separate from Raw Intuition, with their cure potencies are turned into barriers that generates itself after every GCD & stackable. Each lasts for 6s. For each barrier broken will reset the recast of Upheaval/Orogeny.
• Remove HoT and healing component off Shake It Off but give a larger boost to its shield generation depending on how much cooldowns they dispelled idk the proper number.
• Idk what to do with Equilibrium but probably remove their HoT as well.

DRK:

• Nerf AD cure potency to 300p per target but separate them from CaS.

GNB:

Idk what to do with GNB but maybe give them the option to use Aurora and today's HoC only if they eat the damage loss by junctioning a (dead) healer in their party? I.e. Heart of Stone remains as it is, and only turn into Heart of Corundum if GNB Junctions a healer. At the very least, I don't think they should have access to all 300p regen from two Auroras and HoC like today without some cost.

Because I'm a ShB baby, I can only use that expac as a point of reference. And I recall clearly the trinity was still alive and well despite the possibility of going healerless in dungeons (with knowledge & skill) and the existence of some tank sustains.

[Rithy255]

Honestly if it were up to me, the degree of sustain I'd like to see with the tanks would be back somewhere to their ShB sustainability with some tweaks, which entails the following loosely:

For PLD
I think if you were to change magic attacks into a barrier I rather be it when it's not during your burst (req window) as it would encourage PLD's to hold holy spirits and time it, I don't really feel too keen on giving a Barrier to Holy sheltron when it's 40% already has a Barrier + Req giving barrier, Dark knight fits the "barrier tank" theme. I like the regen on cover, Though I'd like at least a little bit of self/personal sustain (not to its current extent) if other tanks keep it to a extent, or PLD would likely be designated off tank again. similar to shb but less extreme as you don't outright lose damage for being a MT. I feel like DV if you dont want the heal aspect and view it as a issue could likely increase healing by 10% (sort of like Bard/Mnk's ability) I personally don't think a 400 potency (that's like 300 healer potency) is the end of the world though.

Warrior
I like the warrior ideas in general, I loved Shb warriors defensive kit as it felt like you had options and choices Raw int/flash being totally different cooldown's that are shared one for sustain one for mitigation just works nicely Imo, one thing I'd change about the SHB ver is making flash selfish but Raw Int targetable I'd also just make BW a upgrade that mitigates more and keeps the barrier aspect. Equilibrium should lose the HOT, If that's still viewed as too op (with keeping something similar to flash), It's possible to make the cooldown longer or reduce the potency further. Also I'd remove the 40%'s heal effect as it's regen is way too much, I'd replace it with some other mitigating effect (I have no clue why SE thought warrior needed more sustain in DT)

DRK
Now DRK would be one of the best sustain tanks as it's 40% has a massive heal and AD is slept on for AOE sustain even at 300 potency it would be a massive heal in AOE, keeping both CaS and AD for fight's would also mean it would have 800 healing per minute ontop of it's 40% healing it, Not against it but it's kind of weird how much sustain you'd take off PLD & Gnb but ignore DRK in particular.

GNB
I just feel like these are very odd and un-needed changes, Aurora should go to 200 potency (I don't mind the two charges personally) HOC should either have its healing aspect removed or reduced strongly