Why is Warrior a healer in all but role?

[Rithy255]

It's a much larger issue then tank balance or "warrior op in dungeons" (though i agree please remove BW per hit heal it's absurd)

I've made this point serval times and people look at self healing on tanks in a vacuum and say "remove it it's the problem" But in fact it's way more complicated, it's how tanks are entirely designed to be uber defensive (have you seen the mitigations) ontop of having strong self healing tools in a low output games which all three play a factor into how absurdly strong tanks feel Theirs also a point where healer kits are also overtuned.

I think theirs not really a simple solution to fixing the tank healer dynamic without completely overhauling everything about tanks and healers, which is obviously very much needed in the current design as the trinity system as of current is not working and will not continue to work unless something is done.

I'd argue we can't just simiply "nerf tanks" because then they'd feel terrible (they already do infact) we need to actually overhaul them (and healers) simple adjustments such as removing healing from tanks or whatever will not "fix the trinity system" Theirs so many problems that I think we need something much larger to happen.

This is why 4 man content is a problem. In high end 4 man content taking anything not PLD or WAR you are pretty much grieving because of the amount of self healing those two tanks have is light years ahead of the other two tanks.

This is why 8+ man content is huge for healers because that is where their value shines the most. Bloodwhetting was a mistake because it forced devs to give PLD more healing which made them give GNB and DRK a little bit of more healing.

Gunbreaker isn't very far off Paladin, infact it has way more controlled healing. Healing stats also because DV/Shake are AOE both shields and heals (which are counted as healing) PLD auto healing from magic attacks (which imo should very clearly be removed, paladin shouldn't be a life steal tank it makes no sense)

Warrior is actually kind of bad in 4man content because its AOE damage sucks, you really dont need the excess healing it brings once you get better gear, Drk can comfortably tank with very few heals, I'd know I play DRK in dungeons i barely need any heals.

[Shinku_Tachi]

The people who play Warrior, obviously. I actually wouldn't be stunned if it's one of the most popular to cap even if most players don't like it because of what a jack of all trades it in in practice.

I totally get the mentality to that doing a massive nerf to a perfectly functioning and beloved job for the sake of other jobs of an entirely different role and playstyle feels very wrong.

And the devs say time and time again that they HATE to do playstyle changing nerfs, and just went over that with the heat placed upon Pictomancer after FRU.

Exactly, at the end of the day, the solution isn't nerf warrior and make warrior less fun to appease the healers.

The solution is to tinker with healer and find ways to make healer more fun.

[RedLolly]

Exactly, at the end of the day, the solution isn't nerf warrior and make warrior less fun to appease the healers.

The solution is to tinker with healer and find ways to make healer more fun.

I used to be one of the people that hated how Warriors could carry anything, but now I think *every* job should be more like Warrior in that a good player can do some insane stuff and feel great playing it. Warrior being cracked should be the example, not the exception.

I just hate the axe berserker fantasy. It doesn't fit me at all.

[Voidmage]

I used to be one of the people that hated how Warriors could carry anything, but now I think *every* job should be more like Warrior in that a good player can do some insane stuff and feel great playing it. Warrior being cracked should be the example, not the exception.

I just hate the axe berserker fantasy. It doesn't fit me at all.

You don't need to be a good player to be insane with WAR though outside maybe savage upwards...
You simply press your instant heal button when you need it.

A job definitely should NOT be cracked like it in an MMO where you usually fight in a party.
The equivalent would be a SAM instakilling mobs with Zantetsuken by doing a simple rotation.

Tanks need to get reigned in and WAR most of all.
They have completely invalidated OC already, which is current content.
Just imagine the outcry tank mains would have if DPS and Heal was the best combo and they could tank dungeons without much trouble and be faster with it.

If the job designers one day wake up again, I really hope that they look into the definition of a tank again because "Mary Sue" is usually not it.

There is a problem when every solo guide in an MMO starts with "have a WAR".

[Shinku_Tachi]

Tanks need to get reigned in and WAR most of all.

Instead of SE "reining in" what makes WAR so fun and appealing to those who play WAR, I'd rather SE work on making other classes more fun.

[Rithy255]

Exactly, at the end of the day, the solution isn't nerf warrior and make warrior less fun to appease the healers.

The solution is to tinker with healer and find ways to make healer more fun.

This is the problem, It's not about appeasing healers It's about having a fundamental and balanced game where tanks and healers are both fun. Rather then outright nerfing warrior we should question on how to rebalance it along side all the other tanks and healers who all need design overhauls.

The issue in my opinion isn't even the fact that warrior has strong self healing it's the way it's implemented to the extent it makes healing on a healer feel even more useless then it already usually is, you can't really add more to healers outside DPS options, which i think is a good direction but at the same time if tanks can just do everything for the healer why not just have everyone who isn't a tank be a DPS?

Thing that confuses me the most is why is the big rage axe tank even about healing mass amounts of hp to allies? it just feels really odd and weird to me personally, but further more why can't warrior have a identity that fits outside being a super sustain machine that invalidates healers as a whole, I much rather have tanks that act as Co-Suppots with your healer, both sharing the responsibility in keeping the party alive but theirs a issue when one can just completely invalidate the other.

I think instead of this "Tank vs healer" debate that gets no one anywhere people should be asking how can we make both roles actually fun and enjoyable, I personally don't like hyper uber defensive self value on tanks is at all fun, it makes the game frankly boring, it might be fun for a little while to turn on "god mode" as a tank, but I personally can't stand warrior in dungeons because of how easy and boring it is that I have a bene on a 25s cooldown that lasts for 8s (3-4 hits) I think tanks and healers would be better if they had to work off each other and synergize well to pull off big pulls rather then tanks easily clicking one button and being able to tank everything.

[Voidmage]

Instead of SE "reigning in" what makes WAR so fun and appealing to those who play WAR, I'd rather SE work on making other classes more fun.

There is a difference between fun and overpowered though.
The fun of some shouldn't come at the cost of the rest, you still play with other people in this game who also want to feel like they matter.

WAR was already fun when it wasn't "Jesus with an axe".

I am all for other jobs to become fun again but if we simply follow the WAR example you can just give everyone an instawin button in dungeons because thats what it boils down to.

I am not saying to nerf WAR to the ground but absolutely no one can convince me that it's self healing now is fine, especially not with how easy it is to do.

[Shinku_Tachi]

This is the problem, It's not about appeasing healers It's about having a fundamental and balanced game where tanks and healers are both fun. Rather then outright nerfing warrior we should question on how to rebalance it along side all the other tanks and healers who all need design overhauls.

The issue in my opinion isn't even the fact that warrior has strong self healing it's the way it's implemented to the extent it makes healing on a healer feel even more useless then it already usually is, you can't really add more to healers outside DPS options, which i think is a good direction but at the same time if tanks can just do everything for the healer why not just have everyone who isn't a tank be a DPS?

Thing that confuses me the most is why is the big rage axe tank even about healing mass amounts of hp to allies? it just feels really odd and weird to me personally, but further more why can't warrior have a identity that fits outside being a super sustain machine that invalidates healers as a whole, I much rather have tanks that act as Co-Suppots with your healer, both sharing the responsibility in keeping the party alive but theirs a issue when one can just completely invalidate the other.

I think instead of this "Tank vs healer" debate that gets no one anywhere people should be asking how can we make both roles actually fun and enjoyable, I personally don't like hyper uber defensive self value on tanks is at all fun, it makes the game frankly boring, it might be fun for a little while to turn on "god mode" as a tank, but I personally can't stand warrior in dungeons because of how easy and boring it is that I have a bene on a 25s cooldown that lasts for 8s (3-4 hits) I think tanks and healers would be better if they had to work off each other and synergize well to pull off big pulls rather then tanks easily clicking one button and being able to tank everything.

Great points.

My problem with a lot of these discussions and the whole "Tank vs Healer" debate in general, is that, in most cases, it boils down do disgruntled healers wanting to crush tanks to restore FFXIV back to ARR & Heavensward systems. Which, fine, I was having fun then too, so if we rolled back to ARR / HW systems, I'd be fine with it; but, it's a different game now.

So, I'd rather see SE work on spreading the fun around and keeping all classes valid, than invalidating healer or stripping down warrior.

There is a difference between fun and overpowered though.
The fun of some shouldn't come at the cost of the rest, you still play with other people in this game who also want to feel like they matter.

WAR was already fun when it wasn't "Jesus with an axe".

I am all for other jobs to become fun again but if we simply follow the WAR example you can just give everyone an instawin button in dungeons because thats what it boils down to.

I am not saying to nerf WAR to the ground but absolutely no one can convince me that it's self healing now is fine, especially not with how easy it is to do.

I gotcha, and I don't really disagree with anything you're saying (though WAR's self healing is fine to me).

I'm just of the pov that fun > balance and tuning when it comes to game design. I don't think balance and tuning should be totally thrown out obviously, but it shouldn't come at the cost of fun, imo.

[Supersnow845]

Instead of SE "reining in" what makes WAR so fun and appealing to those who play WAR, I'd rather SE work on making other classes more fun.

Can you please present your “vision” on how a person playing a healer who wants to have fun by healing can co-exist with WAR/PLD in their current state

It’s easy to say “don’t nerf tanks make healers fun” but how do you reconcile that with healers who’s idea of fun is specifically because they want to heal (note I don’t mean sylphies here I mean people who do damage and other things but they play a healer because they want to heal)

[Shinku_Tachi]

Can you please present your “vision” on how a person playing a healer who wants to have fun by healing can co-exist with WAR/PLD in their current state

It’s easy to say “don’t nerf tanks make healers fun” but how do you reconcile that with healers who’s idea of fun is specifically because they want to heal (note I don’t mean sylphies here I mean people who do damage and other things but they play a healer because they want to heal)

Make group content bosses hit tanks hard enough so they can't solo heal though it, so they can give you work. Add in some heal checks to keep you busy healing.

I just feel like, the "lets strip down tanks" discussion is less productive than discussing: how can battle content be developed to validate my class and what can be done with my class in 7.xx & 8.0 era FFXIV to make my class more enjoyable.