Why is Warrior a healer in all but role?

[Supersnow845]

Make group content bosses hit tanks hard enough so they can't solo heal though it, so they can give you work. Add in some heal checks to keep you busy healing.

I just feel like, the "lets strip down tanks" discussion is less productive than discussing: how can battle content be developed to validate my class and what can be done with my class in 7.xx & 8.0 era FFXIV to make my class more enjoyable.

That doesn’t fix dungeon content. For all the “shouldn’t balance around casual content” content is still content

And the rest of the suggestion is literally what savage already should be, why is ranks being able to outheal autos in savage even something that ever happened

And you say that stripping down tank discussion is reductive but it HAS to be part of the conversation because of how deeply tanks encroach on healer design. I don’t want the tank to be the healer while the healer does something else, if I’m in content as a healer it shouldn’t be a stretch to expect the healer to be the one actually healing because that’s what I find fun

[Rithy255]

Snip

I can only comment from my own perspective a tank main, who usually goes for healer and supportive roles on other games, but dislikes the fact that all healers are bland mage jobs.

But I really think the amount that tanks have especially their self defensive value takes away from my own personal fun and enjoyment, I'd love it if it felt like tanks actually had to actively mitigate more wisely, they'd have to support allies through protective abilities (even including some healing).

I don't agree with we should look to HW (or even stormblood though i think stormblood did a lot right) because they were flawed for their own reasons, I think we should be looking on Innovating the systems and concept of tanking and healing as a whole rather then this crusade against tanks having any self/target healing being seen as tanks "taking away from healers"

I can understand healer frustrations as I do enjoy healing generally in games (though ff14 makes that very hard for me just from a design perspective of all healers having to be backline mages with how rigid and scared they are of making anything unique). But I rather not it be seen as "tanks op" it's really not that simple, Healers also have so many ogcd heals and insane healing creep to the point 90% of their kit isn't even needed on a dark knight, This is a issue with damage output and tanks having absurd mitigation value through baseline and cooldowns.

I think the idea that we have to discuss who gets to have fun tanks or healers just proves both roles aren't working in current design, I think moving forward we need to overhaul both, rather then the idea we should just take things from tanks. Healers will still be absurdly boring and it fixes nothing other then healers feeling slightly better that they can press one cooldown on a tank and appear to be useful now, we need to fundamentally look at how we can make both fun & strong and needed.

The solution strictly shouldn't be making everything warrior level in dungeons or any other content, to do that white mage would have a tank stance and be able to pull mobs keeping aggro and have bene on 25s along with super high defensive value, that would just be absurd and tanks would feel miserable that healers are doing everything they can do. I would frankly be bored and annoyed if they made healing from magic attacks per enemy on paladin because it would completely invalidate all my other cooldowns and proper cycling of mitigations. Looking at warrior for the ideal of job design shouldn't be the solution either.

I genuinely think if warrior kept some of its strengths just more reined in, but everything else was also balanced to be more fun around it and warrior possibly got more fitting tools then it could be way more fun, though there will always be a small amount of people who want to turn their brain off and solo everything, but frankly that shouldn't be catered to in a MMORPG.

[Shinku_Tachi]

We need to fundamentally look at how we can make both fun & strong and needed.

All great points Rithris. And at the end of the day, this point here specifically is all I really want.

The game is better when we're all having fun playing it.

[Varilyon]

Former healer main here. Now Warrior main. If you cannot fight against the current, swim with it. Now I can sleep through every content.

Final Fantasy very easy mode

[Kozh]

Make group content bosses hit tanks hard enough so they can't solo heal though it, so they can give you work. Add in some heal checks to keep you busy healing.

This doesn't sound logical. You want the boss to hit harder so that healer can heal more, but why do that when SE can just... nerf WAR healing potency...? The result is the same after all.

Well, personally I want more DPS option for healer, since everything revolves around damage being the best mitigation in this game. But I wouldn't oppose to heal more as well. The problem is, there's only so much damage they can make the boss do before it become too much for the casual, which they will have to rebalance healers potency and tank survivability, again.

[Shinku_Tachi]

This doesn't sound logical. You want the boss to hit harder so that healer can heal more, but why do that when SE can just... nerf WAR healing potency...? The result is the same after all.

No, that's not what I want.

I was responding to someone asking a specific question, because they said they were a healer specifically to heal, and that the only thing they find fun is healing. In general, I'd like to see a solution Rithy255 talked about. They were able to word things a bit better than me.

[Valence]

And the devs say time and time again that they HATE to do playstyle changing nerfs, and just went over that with the heat placed upon Pictomancer after FRU.

And the devs do certainly have a stellar track record of preserving playstyles, right?

I used to be one of the people that hated how Warriors could carry anything, but now I think *every* job should be more like Warrior in that a good player can do some insane stuff and feel great playing it. Warrior being cracked should be the example, not the exception.

I just hate the axe berserker fantasy. It doesn't fit me at all.

There is nothing being skilled with pressing a button every 25s that does the healing of three benedictions back to back.
If we want to argue about skill expression while keeping the same model, then ShB WAR would probably qualify a little more since the healing was directly correlated to the damage dealt - why did they remove this? no idea, warrior brains wouldn't handle it I guess...

so if we rolled back to ARR / HW systems, I'd be fine with it; but, it's a different game now.

If the excuse is that we can't change the game back to what it was because the game is a different game now, then it also admits that the game has changed enough to be a different game. If the game has changed enough, then it can also change enough once more to get to something more tolerable. Else it's just another argument for conservatism/conformism.

Make group content bosses hit tanks hard enough so they can't solo heal though it, so they can give you work. Add in some heal checks to keep you busy healing.

I'm afraid I do not get that "kicking the can down the road" logic. If we buffed tanks on self healing and mitigation sky high to get where we are now, your solution would be to crank up sky high the mechanics that threaten them to overcome this? So we essentially have come full circle and essentially back to the start, except now that the difference between roles is even more lopsided than ever? Because everything that's not a tank already kicks the bucket in one hit or two even in casual content so imagine once encounters levels of threats would increase tenfold just to accommodate tanks that don't want to see their self healing nerfed?

[Shinku_Tachi]

If the excuse is that we can't change the game back to what it was because the game is a different game now, then it also admits that the game has changed enough to be a different game. If the game has changed enough, then it can also change enough once more to get to something more tolerable. Else it's just another argument for conservatism/conformism.

I already addressed the last quote in my previous post replying to Kozh, so I'll reply to this point.

It's not going to be changed back, the systems of ARR/HW/StB are not coming back ever. As much as I prefer what the systems evolved to in StB. Those days are gone. Unless SE decides to start releasing FFXIV classic. We know this because Yoshi P addressed it recently saying -- the systems coming in 8.0 would be an expansion on the existing systems. Players who like the way things are can feel at ease that nothing is going to change for their experience. That they are going to do new things on top of what they already have. -- So they're going forward not backwards. That's the reality of the situation. If there was a possibility of getting them to roll-back, I'd be screaming for them to bring back StB systems. That was my favs in terms of how battle content worked and how classes played.

That's why, as I've been saying the whole time, I'd prefer a solution that makes things fun and enjoyable for healers, without taking away the fun from warriors.