It's time to ask again: what's MP for?

[Valkyrie-Veil]

And my point is, "players won't like it," is not a valid excuse to not bring back a staple mechanic in an RPG.

For what it’s worth, I agree with you. However, the OP’s post is saying that if they aren’t going to make MP management meaningful again (and they are not. There is no universe in which SE makes anything more complicated again), there is no point for the MP to exist.

[Valence]

And, if it isn't obvious, my opinion is that MP management should be more engaging on jobs, however, getting MP from an outside source would necessarily lessen the experience of playing that job.

When you don't get heals, which comes from an outside source, sometimes you die, and it lessens the experience as well. I'm sure that's why they made tanks invulnerable and healers borderline useless in many types of contents, and tried to fix it a little by allowing us the use of phoenix downs as the final nail, so that nothing from an outside source can completely spoil our individual experiences. And the more they go about it, the more they try to remove any source of friction in parties not to "lessen the experience".

Just feels bad when someone messes something up and you have to deal with the consequences of it!

But then again instead they shifted everything on having mechanics where someone messes up their DDR the party wipes anyway, turning every other player into a potential enemy.

Food for thought.

For what it’s worth, I agree with you. However, the OP’s post is saying that if they aren’t going to make MP management meaningful again (and they are not. There is no universe in which SE makes anything more complicated again), there is no point for the MP to exist.

Yes, that was irony, part of a rhetorical process to show how already useless MP is and that keeping it up at this point is purely hypocritical of them.

[Mikey_R]

When you don't get heals, which comes from an outside source, sometimes you die, and it lessens the experience as well.

And you can point the finger at the healer for doing a bad job as that is the primary role they have to do in the instance.

A phys ranged primary role is not going to be to manage someone else's MP, it is to do damage, with MP management being secondary to that. There is also the fact that, as the caster, I have no idea when the MP recovery is coming, how long it is until it is off cooldown, are they even going to use it at all etc. There are just too many variables outside of your control for you to properly manage your MP, so it isn't going to be utilised properly either, as the default will be to play it safe.

Just feels bad when someone messes something up and you have to deal with the consequences of it!

A Phys Ranged not using MP recovery only messes up the caster, someone dying inconveniences the healer for a GCD or 2, but it also punishes the player that died as they are now...not playing the game. You are then encouraged to learn the mechanics and not die, which improves your experience, and helps your healer by not having to react to something out of the ordinary.

But then again instead they shifted everything on having mechanics where someone messes up their DDR the party wipes anyway, turning every other player into a potential enemy

Which has nothing to do with MP management at all.

However, I do find it quite telling that you didn't try and explore the points I made in my post. I assume you have the opposite opinion of me, so why not talk about what I have said and why you think it would be good for the game. We do have to bear in mind we need to look at all ranges of skill, but that could just be a, the more casual audience really don't care about optimising that much, so I don't think it needs to have as big a consideration as a more organised group who can plan and properly manage between themselves. We would likely agree to disagree, but at least you are putting your thought process out there as it is rather than trying to hide behind a bad analogy.

[Valence]

And you can point the finger at the healer for doing a bad job as that is the primary role they have to do in the instance.

A phys ranged primary role is not going to be to manage someone else's MP, it is to do damage, with MP management being secondary to that. There is also the fact that, as the caster, I have no idea when the MP recovery is coming, how long it is until it is off cooldown, are they even going to use it at all etc. There are just too many variables outside of your control for you to properly manage your MP, so it isn't going to be utilised properly either, as the default will be to play it safe.

So let me ask the following question then: why do people get pissy at healers not doing enough damage or at all, since it is not their primary role, as healing is the defined primary role of healers? Because a role is secondary doesn't mean that role is by necessity optional or useless especially in challenging content.

A Phys Ranged not using MP recovery only messes up the caster, someone dying inconveniences the healer for a GCD or 2, but it also punishes the player that died as they are now...not playing the game. You are then encouraged to learn the mechanics and not die, which improves your experience, and helps your healer by not having to react to something out of the ordinary.

That is absolutely disingenuous. You can perfectly die for reasons totally out of your control if a healer doesn't properly heal unavoidable damage. In fact, it can also be other roles too, especially in savage/ultimates, when some people do not press their mitigation buttons. Does this mitigation thing somehow qualify as a more "primary job" than using manasong? Saying yes would be illogical.

However, I do find it quite telling that you didn't try and explore the points I made in my post. I assume you have the opposite opinion of me, so why not talk about what I have said and why you think it would be good for the game. We do have to bear in mind we need to look at all ranges of skill, but that could just be a, the more casual audience really don't care about optimising that much, so I don't think it needs to have as big a consideration as a more organised group who can plan and properly manage between themselves. We would likely agree to disagree, but at least you are putting your thought process out there as it is rather than trying to hide behind a bad analogy.

I actually already did somewhere earlier, in the part about systems that do not fall within the binary umbrella, which was especially the case in HW, notably dungeons - aka heaving manasong or tp song would alleviate strain on party resources, but was hardly mandatory for completion. But they could perfectly stay binary in challenging content, because that's what healing and mitigation are, and I don't see any difference as exposed above.

[Mikey_R]

So let me ask the following question then: why do people get pissy at healers not doing enough damage or at all, since it is not their primary role, as healing is the defined primary role of healers? Because a role is secondary doesn't mean that role is by necessity optional or useless especially in challenging content.

Because if your healer is stop around doing nothing, might as well do some damage. This is possible because there is downtime in healing, even with someone who isn't as skilled as others, ie. using more GCD healing than needed, will find still have periods of no healing required.

That is absolutely disingenuous. You can perfectly die for reasons totally out of your control if a healer doesn't properly heal unavoidable damage. In fact, it can also be other roles too, especially in savage/ultimates, when some people do not press their mitigation buttons. Does this mitigation thing somehow qualify as a more "primary job" than using manasong? Saying yes would be illogical.

I made the statement under the assumption that the healer was providing enough healing to prevent any deaths from a 'clean' run of the boss. Should have stated that, so that is on me.

Now, HP management is a completely different ball game to MP management. A tank's job is to prevent it from going down, a healer's job is to bring it back up, in the most simplest of terms. The survivability of the team is the most important thing and if the damage rotation has to slip in order for the team to not die, then they will. Deaths cause large damage and MP loses including any resources needed to make the person healthy again.

A caster not having MP just means they do their rotation slower and again, I will go back t the point I have previously made, in any encounter that expects more from the player, you can expect them to properly utilise the MP restoration. So the only place it matters is in more casual content.

I actually already did somewhere earlier, in the part about systems that do not fall within the binary umbrella, which was especially the case in HW, notably dungeons - aka heaving manasong or tp song would alleviate strain on party resources, but was hardly mandatory for completion. But they could perfectly stay binary in challenging content, because that's what healing and mitigation are, and I don't see any difference as exposed above.

The only reason you needed TP/MP restoration was because the AoE options cost a lot of resource, making you bottom out very quickly. It is an artificial increase just to justify having those restorations around.

However, let's go back to the first post I made, look at what I said and make comment on that as that does address what I would consider the starting point, which is ultimately, how would it affect the playstyle of the caster receiving the restoration in the first place.

[Valence]

It's a different ball game to you, doesn't mean it's the truth for everyone. I've always seen player resources as part of a whole bigger picture, notably in dungeons, and saying that TP/MP restoration was needed in there is also misinformed. It was not actually needed, but it was appreciated. You say it yourself, HP management was part of the tank and healer's job (and dps by the way, things dying faster meant less strain on resources for everyone). When MP is meaningful, it's directly correlated to party survival much like healing is. Saying that it's secondary is like saying a healer using anything else than cure is secondary. A healer using all their tools will obviously heal better and more efficiently, leaving room for more party damage, killing things faster, straining everyone's resources less. A party support using their party support will also help a healer DPS more for a longer time (at least in HW's paradigm).

The beauty of HW dungeons was the resource management within a bigger system. I loved played healer there because it actually asked me to think and adjust to every situation and party because they were all different. Sometimes your tank was undergeared, sometimes, not, sometimes not playing well, sometime very good, sometimes your party dps was a clownfiesta, sometimes I had a rphys to use manasong, sometimes not, this directly informed how much I had to heal them, how much MP I had to devote to the party survival you mentioned, and how much I could devote to Holy, and how I'd balance between the two. This also meant how and when I could use Lucid, and how to plan for the next pull because MP didn't fully magically regen in between either. In a way it's not dissimilar to current pvp where HP and MP are essentially part of the same pool of resources.

But I know what problem you do have, it's at the individual level. What the gameplay turns into when MP/TP actually runs dry. I've said it already, it was badly conceived and not fun for a lot of people and I wasn't super fond of it either.