"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

[TBerry]

Which as I said a person pulling isn’t automatically in the right for pulling, a person deciding to be petty against them for little more than a slight against their own perceived sense of etiquette is in the wrong. You forfeit any claim to being in the right when you can’t even articulate what the other person did wrong other than just saying that it offends a collective sense of etiquette (that isn’t very collective anyway). Pulling as another player in the modern game has functionally zero downsides and a host of upsides, if you’d rather cling to weird traditional etiquette I’d ask why you aren’t playing all your classes like their HW incarnation considering that was the last time pulling as a DPS generated significant downsides

My annoyance at tank strength has nothing to do with YPYT, it’s just hilarious to me that in the last 6 pages the best justification for YPYT has been “tradition”, “AI slop” and “well if BOTH EU and JP do MPK it must be okay”

I never said anything about justifying YPYT I said on EU players just adhere to the tank pulling because it's agreed upon and the most peaceful solution of teamplay and, I don't know if you heqard about it, but being social, and not being an egomanic for trying to justify antisocial behaviour.

[Supersnow845]

I never said anything about justifying YPYT I said on EU players just adhere to the tank pulling because it's agreed upon and the most peaceful solution and teamplay and, I don't know if you heqard about it, but being social and not an egomanic for trying to justify antisocial behaviour.

Yet here you are trying to justify petty revenge and letting people die for having the gall to not follow the tanks sense of etiquette.

Notice how (and look through all my comments) I have never said that I MYSELF pull ahead of the tank. Because by default I don’t. I ask the tank, I encourage them and I attempt to help them. Will I pull an extra stray mob they might have missed; yes; will I pull an entire extra pack the tank doesn’t; no. Yet here you are painting me as an antisocial egomaniac because I’m pointing out all this weird logic from the last 7 pages you and the other 2 people have been spouting can be flipped right round to the same effect but none of you see that because you are starting from your own circular point of “the tank must be right therefore the tank is right”.

Be the change you want to see in the world via action rather than yapping.

If you want this game to be like this, at least act like it and support tanks being the designated pullers in behavior, if not mechanically (in your opinion).

Funny how; as I said above; I don’t actually pull ahead, I’m already “being the change I want to see in the world” but yall are so blind to how hypocritical your own logic is that when I flip it around from the DPS perspective suddenly I’m a antisocial egomaniac who needs to play a different genre

And what do you know me “being the change I want to see in the world” has lead to the trinity being watered down more and more, maybe I should pull ahead so tanks can realise they are also expendable then maybe they will ask for some semblance of the trinity back

[Crafoutis]

I ask the tank, I encourage them and I attempt to help them.

There's where your ego is getting you: you assume just as a matter of fact that they need help if they're not wall-to-walling, when it could very well just be how they prefer to play.

[TBerry]

Yet here you are trying to justify petty revenge and letting people die for having the gall to not follow the tanks sense of etiquette.

Notice how (and look through all my comments) I have never said that I MYSELF pull ahead of the tank. Because by default I don’t. I ask the tank, I encourage them and I attempt to help them. Will I pull an extra stray mob they might have missed; yes; will I pull an entire extra pack the tank doesn’t; no. Yet here you are painting me as an antisocial egomaniac because I’m pointing out all this weird logic from the last 7 pages you and the other 2 people have been spouting can be flipped right round to the same effect but none of you see that because you are starting from your own circular point of “the tank must be right therefore the tank is right”.

It's not just the tank it's the whole party. And it can happen, but it's just as much the fault of the DPS as it is the tank's.I'm fairly certain most tanks will just get pissy, and a vote of dismissal is more likely. Also no one dies, just damage. I never did YPYT as tank, but I also don't pull as a DPS. Because that's how we do it.

So now we should be supporting people’s illusion of the trinity when the game doesn’t even support it mechanically?

Can you support my “illusion of the trinity” by not healing yourself as a tank when I’m the healer (asking for a friend)

And there it is. Your ulterior motive and the root of your problem with tanks.
Because you are not the sole lifesaver and star of the party.

You can harp on about YPYT (it IS reportable), but we all know it's not about that. The thread has never been. You want to use it as a leverage to coerce and punish people. And OP probably pushed their luck and got kicked.
And you try to justify because it's not a mechanic, because clearly you don't understand the meaning of "community".

And people wonder why NA is so toxic and no one actually wants to play with others.

It kind of reminds me of the the "arguments" griefers use in PvP MMOs when they zerg and spawncamp noobs.
"The game doesn't prevent it, so I can do it."

[BokoToloko]

I'm from EU, I've been doing roulettes since HW and I've had yet to see anyone kick DPS who pulled ahead. Hell, the only reason that solidly gets someone kicked is being afk/offline. I've never faced a dismiss over pulling ahead of a tank and I've done this plenty of times in recent years, specially as a healer. And when I tank? I just... don't care when I can get aggro back and I know the DPS can survive for enough time before I grab the aggro back. I used to think pulling ahead of tank was rude, and then realized it was, in the end, of no consequence.

It's not an NA thing. And if my word alone isn't enough for you, there is plenty of EU veterans in this whole thread that also think YPYT is just tank ego and that DPS pulling ahead is no big deal. It's a headscratcher how you're trying to turn a molehill out of a sand grain when most people running dungeons just... don't care. There is no much story to a DPS pulling ahead other than them pulling ahead. And if you asked most of them, the answer you would get is that they're used to the rythm of W2W, nothing more and nothing less.

You can harp on about YPYT (it IS reportable), but we all know it's not about that. The thread has never been. You want to use it as a leverage to coerce and punish people.
And you try to justify because it's not a mechanic, because clearly you don't understand the meaning of "community"."

Even if the thread comes from a Titanmen alt, it still adresess the opposite: how some tanks use arbitrary etiquette code they've come up with to coerce and punish DPS who don't fall in with their program, which is the whole thing of YPYT (the game is not so complex or new as to not be already optimized by their players). Trying to move the goalpost in order to turn the discussion about some attempt of a psychological study on those who complain about YPYT won't really change that.

And the fun part is that the most cases of YPYT I've seen don't come from EU, but from NA. I would wager Supersnow845 has a much clearer picture on how narcissistic players can be than you think.

[Supersnow845]

And there it is. Your ulterior motive and the root of your problem with tanks.
Because you are not the sole lifesaver and star of the party.

You can harp on about YPYT (it IS reportable), but we all know it's not about that. The thread has never been. You want to use it as a leverage to coerce and punish people. And OP probably pushed their luck and got kicked.
And you try to justify because it's not a mechanic, because clearly you don't understand the meaning of "community".

And people wonder why NA is so toxic and no one actually wants to play with others.

It kind of reminds me of the the "arguments" griefers use in PvP MMOs when they zerg and spawncamp noobs.
"The game doesn't prevent it, so I can do it."

So explain to me, very easily, and very clearly from a neutral foundation why maintaining etiquette built on the foundation of a trinity which now exists in name only is good and should be followed for immersion reasons but other elements of said trinity that is being followed for immersion reasons aren’t relevant

Because id really like to know why anyone should follow the tank because of the ghost of the old trinity but other elements of the old trinity should just be ignored because it’s convenient for you. Either you follow the spirit of the ghost of the trinity or your whole etiquette system collapses because there is no argument where you can both say the DPS should follow the tank because in the old trinity the tank needed to pull first but also say the tank should be able to heal on behalf of the healer when in the old system the tank relied on the healing of the healer

It’s like a textbook case of having your cake and eating it too

[TBerry]

So explain to me, very easily, and very clearly from a neutral foundation why maintaining etiquette built on the foundation of a trinity which now exists in name only is good and should be followed for immersion reasons but other elements of said trinity that is being followed for immersion reasons aren’t relevant

Because id really like to know why anyone should follow the tank because of the ghost of the old trinity but other elements of the old trinity should just be ignored because it’s convenient for you. Either you follow the spirit of the ghost of the trinity or your whole etiquette system collapses because there is no argument where you can both say the DPS should follow the tank because in the old trinity the tank needed to pull first but also say the tank should be able to heal on behalf of the healer when in the old system the tank relied on the healing of the healer

It’s like a textbook case of having your cake and eating it too

So I should just run ahead and abuse my range because you say so. But when I get punished it's 100& the tank's fault and not mine because I want to abuse my range.
I don't know that sounds pretty egoistic.

[BokoToloko]

So I should just run ahead and abuse my range because you say so. But when I get punished it's 100& the tank's fault and not mine because I want to abuse my range.
I don't know that sounds pretty egoistic.

If the tank is the one deciding to punish the DPS for pulling ahead them, yes. Because they could've just easily gone to their side and draw the aggro towards them yet they did not and because, in all likeliness, the other DPS and the healer will also pay for the tank's inaction because they'll likely still do their jobs of dpsing mobs and keeping the party alive. And it's not hard to tell when it's intentional. It's really not.

And the amount of people who carry the mobs miles aways from tank instead of bringing them into their AoE are a minority within a minority. That's not a reference population of players, that's pretty much the outlier that most players will hardly find (if ever).

[Yeonhee]

So I should just run ahead and abuse my range because you say so. But when I get punished it's 100& the tank's fault and not mine because I want to abuse my range.
I don't know that sounds pretty egoistic.

Seeing you talking about being egoistic is kinda funny considering your whole argument revolves around "Follow my outdated made-up etiquette or I'll let you die out of petty revenge".

I'm from EU, I've been doing roulettes since HW and I've had yet to see anyone kick DPS who pulled ahead. Hell, the only reason that solidly gets someone kicked is being afk/offline. I've never faced a dismiss over pulling ahead of a tank and I've done this plenty of times in recent years, specially as a healer. And when I tank? I just... don't care when I can get aggro back and I know the DPS can survive for enough time before I grab the aggro back. I used to think pulling ahead of tank was rude, and then realized it was, in the end, of no consequence.

It's not an NA thing. And if my word alone isn't enough for you, there is plenty of EU veterans in this whole thread that also think YPYT is just tank ego and that DPS pulling ahead is no big deal. It's a headscratcher how you're trying to turn a molehill out of a sand grain when most people running dungeons just... don't care. There is no much story to a DPS pulling ahead other than them pulling ahead. And if you asked most of them, the answer you would get is that they're used to the rythm of W2W, nothing more and nothing less.



Even if the thread comes from a Titanmen alt, it still adresess the opposite: how some tanks use arbitrary etiquette code they've come up with to coerce and punish DPS who don't fall in with their program, which is the whole thing of YPYT (the game is not so complex or new as to not be already optimized by their players). Trying to move the goalpost in order to turn the discussion about some attempt of a psychological study on those who complain about YPYT won't really change that.

And the fun part is that the most cases of YPYT I've seen don't come from EU, but from NA. I would wager Supersnow845 has a much clearer picture on how narcissistic players can be than you think.

100% that.