Premades Don’t Break Frontline — They Broke the Illusion of the Horde Stampede

[Exmo]

Let me also make my stance absolutely clear:
I do not support Premades because I’m in one.
I solo queue on Primal, both on this character and my main.
I oppose your narrative on principle, because you don’t get to dictate how others choose to enjoy Frontline, especially when it’s classified as casual PvP content.

Right back at you. You shouldn't get to force everyone else to play in premades or resort to horde mentality as the only way to compete in the arms race you're perpetuating. Your entire argument is predicated on the assumption that you are not responsible for your actions or the environment you've created.

[Divinemights]

Right back at you. You shouldn't get to force everyone else to play in premades or resort to horde mentality as the only way to compete in the arms race you're perpetuating. Your entire argument is predicated on the assumption that you are not responsible for your actions or the environment you've created.

At this point, it's clear that you don't fully understand what you're talking about.
I strongly oppose the idea of using premade groups as a scapegoat
How anyone could twist that into suggesting I support forcing everyone to play in premades is beyond me.

[Exmo]

At this point, it's clear that you don't fully understand what you're talking about.
I strongly oppose the idea of using premade groups as a scapegoat
How anyone could twist that into suggesting I support forcing everyone to play in premades is beyond me.

Half your posts on this forum is you shouting down anyone who wants premades to be banned from FL. I'm sorry that you do not understand how you are propagating the culture of premade stomping, but at some point you'll have to look at the effects of your behaviour.

[Divinemights]

Half your posts on this forum is you shouting down anyone who wants premades to be banned from FL. I'm sorry that you do not understand how you are propagating the culture of premade stomping, but at some point you'll have to look at the effects of your behaviour.

Yes, it's true.
I am firmly against the idea of banning premades from Frontline.
The way you used the term “shut down” is interesting.
Is it because I present my arguments in a clear, reasonable, and organized manner?
And perhaps it's harder to dismiss me as simply a "premade defender" when I’m actually a very active solo queue player myself?
I believe my stance and behavior are completely fair
I genuinely do not agree with the notion that players should lose the right to enjoy Frontline content with their friends.

Also, most of my posts are strongly critical of Horde premade stomping and the damage it has done to the NA PvP community
Especially during that infamous three-month Onsal Hakair lockdown, which I’ve consistently blamed for degrading match quality and changing player behavior
So I honestly don’t understand where the idea comes from that “half of my posts are about defending premades” or “shutting down” the conversation.
Is it simply because I happen to be on the opposite side of the argument from you?

[Trevski]

Right back at you. You shouldn't get to force everyone else to play in premades or resort to horde mentality as the only way to compete in the arms race you're perpetuating. Your entire argument is predicated on the assumption that you are not responsible for your actions or the environment you've created.

What exactly would be your ideal competitive game mode?

The only thing Divinemights is saying is that the better team is the one that tends to perform better as a team (ie, cooperation and communication.)


Running around in an amorphous blob with no real focus on targets, direction, etc. is less effective than a team that has a clear game plan, leadership, etc.

Premades are being used as a boogeyman from players who don't like getting stomped on. This is usually because of a lack of gamesense, map awareness, poor fundamentals, etc. combined with an unwillingness to learn, which boils down to the conclusion Divinemights made:

“I’m used to a low-effort playstyle where I feel successful. Premades threaten that illusion.”

People just want the rewards and just want it to be a cakewalk.

What's amazing is that the biggest advantage that premades have (shotcalling/leadership) can be done by anyone who has solo queued and is willing to step up. But no one wants to do that (see again: I'm used to a low-effort playstyle) and instead get upset.

I'm assuming your ideal version of Frontlines PVP would be having all three teams locked in their respective 'big ice' section of the Shatter map and whoever licks the ice the fastest wins. If not, explain what would be your ideal.

[Exmo]

What exactly would be your ideal competitive game mode?

The only thing Divinemights is saying is that the better team is the one that tends to perform better.


Running around in an amorphous blob with no real focus on targets, direction, etc. is less effective than a team that has a clear game plan, leadership, etc.

Premades are being used as a boogeyman from players who don't like getting stomped on. This is usually because of a lack of gamesense, map awareness, poor fundamentals, etc. combined with an unwillingness to learn, which boils down to the conclusion Divinemights made:

“I’m used to a low-effort playstyle where I feel successful. Premades threaten that illusion.”

People just want the rewards and just want it to be a cakewalk.

What's amazing is that the biggest advantage that premades have (shotcalling/leadership) can be done by anyone who has solo queued and is willing to step up. But no one wants to do that (see again: I'm used to a low-effort playstyle) and instead get upset.

I'm assuming your ideal version of Frontlines PVP would be having all three teams locked in their respective 'big ice' section of the Shatter map and whoever licks the ice the fastest wins. If not, explain what would be your ideal.

I've talked about it to death, just read the thread.
Yuu don't need premades for shot calling. I see it every game.
If an organized premade is on the field, their team will probably win. It's tautological to say that's because they're "better". That's the end of the story. If the main reason you won or lost is because of 4 players in a VC, the game is broken.

[Trevski]

I've talked about it to death, just read the thread.

The only thing I've seen is 'ban premades.'

I'm asking what your ideal Frontlines experience would be, because I haven't seen you say that.

Yuu don't need premades for shot calling. I see it every game.

Exactly. The issue isn't with premades, it is the disparity of competency between teams.

If an organized premade is on the field, their team will probably win. It's tautological to say that's because they're "better". That's the end of the story. If the main reason you won or lost is because of 4 players in a VC, the game is broken.

I'm not saying that a premade makes a team better. I'm saying that the better overall team is one that cooperates, communicates, etc. better than the other 2. I'll admit I phrased my original sentence badly and will edit it. As said, 'premades' are a boogeyman/scapegoat.

The larger issue is the greater balance of things I talked about in my post: game sense (Is a player running away when they get the Chiten debuff on them or are they standing there wailing on the SAM and getting Zanked? Is a player popping Guard when Wildfire is tossed on them?), map awareness (Does the player know that the third team just broke their big ice? Does a player know that they are going to be pinched if they contest a big node?) Fundamentals (Do players know what their buttons do, how they work, etc.)

To be clear: there is NOTHING wrong with being inexperienced in any of the things I listed above. Everyone starts somewhere.

Where it becomes a problem is when players don't want to learn or, worse, not cooperate/communicate in a team game in a multiplayer game.

There are folks on here who have expressed an intense dislike for listening/cooperating with others. That isn't a game problem but a person problem.

The same thing goes with an unwillingness to learn or play the game mode. There is nothing wrong with having an expectation of people queuing up to participate and making up excuses as to why 'not trying' is okay is the issue. Even nonserious or casual games require participation, not sitting watching Netflix (or whatever.)

If the main reason you won or lost is because of 4 players in a VC, the game is broken.

You're making the assumption that you accused me of having made: that a premade is somehow an auto-win. It isn't. What is more important is a willingness for folks to work together.

The more people are actively participating/understanding things the less need there is for shotcalling and the overall impact of premades is lessened or blunted.

The solution, in my mind, is banning lethargic or disruptive gameplay, not people who are playing the game mode as intended. I tend to report players who are sandbagging (ie, saying things in chat like "I'm just gonna die" or having donuts at the end of match) and have been getting responses back from GMs.

[Elephantality]

If an organized premade is on the field, their team will probably win. It's tautological to say that's because they're "better". That's the end of the story. If the main reason you won or lost is because of 4 players in a VC, the game is broken.

The game isn't broken, but communication and coordination are strong. That doesn't mean it deserves to be banned. It should be encouraged more! We need more fierce competition. You and others take the mode seriously, which I respect even though I disagree with you, but I think more organization needs to happen in this region.

[Exmo]

The game isn't broken, but communication and coordination are strong. That doesn't mean it deserves to be banned. It should be encouraged more! We need more fierce competition. You and others take the mode seriously, which I respect even though I disagree with you, but I think more organization needs to happen in this region.

Instead of an outright ban, separate matchmaking for premades that matches them against other premades and matches solo players to solo players would go a long way to balancing FL, since it would pit like against like. Some would say then neither queue would get sufficient numbers for a game. That can be alleviated by ideas like reducing the overall player count for a FL match, or letting the queue pop at 8v8v8 and allow more players to filter in during the match in progress.