On this day a year ago, Plunge was taken from us (and other Job Identity)

[CidHeiral]

I'm enjoying my Ninja arc, but man I need Dragoon back so bad. Haven't touched the job (or what's left of it) since then.

I'm still stunned that the same team that made EW DRG could make DT DRG. The changes are so bad it's almost comical, like a post you'd see in a silly "list the ways you'd ruin your favorite job" thread. Ugh.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

[...]

Sigh - Alright so if you care so much about "the number of uses of instant movement skills over time", lets talk about it and why I think it is ridiculous to even lose sleep over this.

For a start, we already have (and had, in case of WAR) dashes that you can press up to 12x per minute with Samurai's Hissatsu: Gyoten, which is a mere 5s CD for a measly 10 Kenki - which is also damage neutral to Shinten and wont break your leg if you miss a single Shinten in a raid buff window as a result of overusing it. That is six times of what tanks recharge right now. Even assuming a degenerate 2x Shadowstride and 2x Plunge at 30s each, that's only a single tank that would have this "mobility/feature creep". Shadowbringers WAR had a similar situation going on with Onslaught vs SAM's Gyoten.

That said, we have another tank that has something crazy that other tanks do not - Paladin. Has arguably the best ranged attack toolkit with Holy Spirit and half of its Requiescat window being extremely potent damage you can use from afar. Fights are not designed around tanks having this - nontheless, Paladin performs greatly whenever you DO have to disengage for some reason when having any instant spells available. Hell, even unbuffed Holy Spirit is fairly strong compared to Tomahawk, Unmend and Lightning Shot.

Furthermore, even with that 50-100% "increase", it is only a potential, not a true increase. Given that mechanics that move you off the boss tend to be spaced as such that even with current Shadowstride you virtually never run out of it (especially given Unmend trait still existing if its really bad), you effectively currently have "infinite" Shadowstride vs what we had before with Plunge where we may have had to hold for planned dashing. So even in a situation where the charge(s) would be 45s and you'd alternate and space the dashes out, you'd literally not run out as long as Shadowstride remains in the game.

Lastly, "additional value" can be added with an effect such as "next XYZ action(s) receive the following benefit (defensive, restorative, situational)" or a Sole Survivor effect that could do something like "heals you for every GCD you land on that target for 100-200 heal potency" with an effect lasting like 66% of Plunge's cooldown, maybe even an "on-kill" effect like in PvP where it grants a %-HP heal + Plunge reset - something that would be kinda nice to have in a fight like M6S for instance. Plunge wouldn't NEED to be a dash you use purely for damage OR its dash capabilities, it can be designed in many ways.

As for "what's the point"? The point is the current dash design is boring and only made things worse from a flavour standpoint. Any changes would make this better.

[Rithy255]

As much as i like plunge it's the least of our worries when it comes to how badly jobs have been homogenized, gap closers in general like it would be cool to see them back but it would barely make a dent in what i actually care about.

If they want to win trust they need to start taking risks in 8.0 they need to show us they're willing to actually be creative with job design.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

As much as i like plunge it's the least of our worries when it comes to how badly jobs have been homogenized, gap closers in general like it would be cool to see them back but it would barely make a dent in what i actually care about.

If they want to win trust they need to start taking risks in 8.0 they need to show us they're willing to actually be creative with job design.

Yeah I 100% agree with that one. Its kind of whack how we actually used to have some interesting interaction (MP and Blood actions fed into each other for instance) and now we got... kinda nothing.

Doesnt have to return to the old days, but man even the PvP kits have more interesting and complex kit interactions with half the buttons. Kinda whack.

[Shurrikhan]

Sigh - Alright so if you care so much about "the number of uses of instant movement skills over time", lets talk about it and why I think it is ridiculous to even lose sleep over this.

Simply pointed out that the exact math you clarified increases that by exactly the amount I stated.

For a start, we already have (and had, in case of WAR) dashes that you can press up to 12x per minute with Samurai's Hissatsu: Gyoten, which is a mere 5s CD for a measly 10 Kenki - which is also damage neutral to Shinten and wont break your leg if you miss a single Shinten in a raid buff window as a result of overusing it.

"Had" = 10s CD on Onslaught, at potency cost, and 10s on Gyoten, also at potency loss. 5s, no-cost Gyoten is quite recent.

And at 12 per minute (or 24 if counting Yaten) movement skills per minute, SAM's mobility is, yes, excessive. DRG, in 2nd place, has just 3 or 5 movement skills per minute, only 2 of them instant, with WAR in 3rd place with 3, with the vast majority having 2. That said, SAM is also the also the only job without multiple charges on its movement skills.

Why would we want to copy the OP outlier? That doesn't sound any more reasonable than having tank sustain all copy WAR at its most broken.

Furthermore, even with that 50-100% "increase", it is only a potential, not a true increase. Given that mechanics that move you off the boss tend to be spaced as such that even with current Shadowstride you virtually never run out of it (especially given Unmend trait still existing if its really bad), you effectively currently have "infinite" Shadowstride vs what we had before with Plunge where we may have had to hold for planned dashing. So even in a situation where the charge(s) would be 45s and you'd alternate and space the dashes out, you'd literally not run out as long as Shadowstride remains in the game.

Which means that capacity should probably be nerfed, not buffed, relative to the demands of encounters. Having effectively infinite gap-closing devalues the likes of Req phases, Yaten, Reply of Wind, etc., because they just render each other redundant.

Again, why buff what is already too much?

As for "what's the point"? The point is the current dash design is boring and only made things worse from a flavour standpoint. Any changes would make this better.

I asked what the point was of having a 1-charge Plunge that therefore would actually need to be used on CD and a 1-charge Shadowslip -- which seems to me the worst of both worlds. You had no examples remotely like adding "defensive, restorative, or situational" benefits in what I quoted and critiqued, only a suggestion for yet more gap-closing per minute.

I'm clearly fine with bundling in more effects. Such has nothing to do with what I was critiquing.

I mean I just argued that such gives harmless increase in button-density and flavor:

Phew, thank god I had you two to explain that to me and not the years of competitive LP! It still can be designed better. EW PLD dash was better. Separating stun into shield bash was better. GNB dashes are better, full stop.

Guess we'd better separate that self-heal/barrier from Brutal Shell, the 4s miti layer and excog each out of Heart of Corundum, the parry chance from the base mitigation of Camouflage, etc.

If we keep having any two effects not perfectly alike (not necessarily sharing exactly the same optimal timings even if separated) together under a single skill to make gameplay more than "monkey see gap, monkey close gap", we'd certainly cause ourselves cognitive fatigue before we can hit our daily PvP fix.

Thinking that could possibly weigh multiple factors together -- what an abomination! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

/s to be clear.

I don't mind having discrete gap-closers, but they're no more needed than for a %DR and barrier to be separate, or damage and healing, etc.. There's extra control in having those as separate tools, certainly, but having the most streamlined, straight-foward path to every capacity (as to reduce any value for/in componential strategy, etc.) isn't always for the best. And as PvP aims to be button-efficient, it makes all the more sense that flavor sometimes bundles in some extra cognitive load rather than all that is not discrete and plain being pruned.

[MetaBoi]

For Dragoon I'm fine with not having Spineshatter dive (I think Winged Glide looks cool) If I were to make changes, I would make it like so:
1 - Mirage Dive opening eyes are back, for downtime where you can't high jump a new action that shares cd with high jump that gives one eye is added and you start each encounter with both eyes opened.
2 - Geirskogul is back to 30 seconds. It grants Blood of the Dragon for 10 seconds and grants 1 usage of Hekla (A blue Nastrond) if you have 0 or 1 eyes. Otherwise, it grants Life of the Dragon for 20 seconds and grants 2 usages of Nastrond.

I feel like this would add some busyness to Dragoon without making it too much and we get to see blue glow in higher levels as well.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Simply pointed out that the exact math you clarified increases that by exactly the amount I stated.
"Had" = 10s CD on Onslaught, at potency cost, and 10s on Gyoten, also at potency loss. 5s, no-cost Gyoten is quite recent.

1.) Gyoten for a long time has not been a potency loss since they have been matching potency-per-gauge (PPG) with Shinten. Gyoten also still costs 10 kenki, all they did was reduce the CD from 10s to 5s - i.e. made it more available
2.) Onslaught was a situational damage loss and on occasion even a damage gain vs non-IR Fell Cleave, the potency-per-gauge difference I did the math a long time ago, feel free to check it.



Basically it boils down to double-digit potency differences over the course of a fight, which in comparison to potency/minute or potency/10min is actually a tiny difference.

And at 12 per minute (or 24 if counting Yaten) movement skills per minute, SAM's mobility is, yes, excessive. DRG, in 2nd place, has just 3 or 5 movement skills per minute, only 2 of them instant, with WAR in 3rd place with 3, with the vast majority having 2. That said, SAM is also the also the only job without multiple charges on its movement skills. Why would we want to copy the OP outlier? That doesn't sound any more reasonable than having tank sustain all copy WAR at its most broken.

Which means that capacity should probably be nerfed, not buffed, relative to the demands of encounters. Having effectively infinite gap-closing devalues the likes of Req phases, Yaten, Reply of Wind, etc., because they just render each other redundant.

Again, why buff what is already too much?

I wouldn't go for a copy of the outlier, as you respond below you know I have more than one way to go about things, but I'm just pointing out that your argument of "increasing availability of gap closers/mobility tools will likely lead to a change to encounter design where all jobs need to be given equivalents or similar" (that's how I understood it) doesn't hold a lot of water because we already *have* cases of precedence where one job or another has a big advantage in mobility/range over others, yet encounter design and by proxy job design isn't being flipped on its head because of it.

WAR's current Onslaught is also more or less just 2 x Onslaught per minute in recharges, giving a bit of leeway before the 2min burst where you want to throw in the odd Onslaught to prevent overcap - it's not that much more mobile, but I'm not gonna die on this hill tbh.

Nerfing capacity and neutering jobs that are outliers is exactly why we have the flavourless job design that we have evolved into now ever since the Shadowbringers design flip. Having 1-3 jobs better at dashes while others be better at ranged attacks (or mobile casting in terms of Casters/Healers) isn't something that should be neutered, but instead embraced.

I asked what the point was of having a 1-charge Plunge that therefore would actually need to be used on CD and a 1-charge Shadowslip -- which seems to me the worst of both worlds. You had no examples remotely like adding "defensive, restorative, or situational" benefits in what I quoted and critiqued, only a suggestion for yet more gap-closing per minute.I'm clearly fine with bundling in more effects. Such has nothing to do with what I was critiquing.

I mean I just argued that such gives harmless increase in button-density and flavor:

You're incorrect on that one - I did give example referencing the PvP DRK equivalent of Plunge. You literally responded to it.

[...]"In all seriousness - why is nobody considering "what if we had both"? Shadowstride on say a 30-45s CD, purely there for mobility on demand and Plunge with damage and mechanically meaningful effects like PvP DRK has it?[...]

That said, my suggestion to have both of them comes from trying to appease both the side that "dashes shouldn't do damage, they should be for utility", hence keeping Shadowstride for a pure mobility tool but also the side that wants Plunge back, which is a satisfying button visually but could be made more interesting. The exact numbers to tweak and settling for how much mobility DRK is supposed to have is a completely different ballgame that I haven't explored - all I am stating is that we should NOT have current Shadowstride + 6.5 Plunge at the exact same time.

[Shurrikhan]

Nerfing capacity and neutering jobs that are outliers is exactly why we have the flavourless job design that we have evolved into now ever since the Shadowbringers design flip. Having 1-3 jobs better at dashes while others be better at ranged attacks (or mobile casting in terms of Casters/Healers) isn't something that should be neutered, but instead embraced.

I never said that those with the most mobility should lose their mobility. I said that if, as you said, even the least mobile character currently have more mobility than they could ever need, then the whole floor is excessive.

I'd far prefer that PLD had less mobility and more ranged capacity as to be more unique from the other tanks. I'd sooner DRK have a way to pull enemies to a given point via Abyssal Drain and Unmend than necessarily have as much mobility as a Warrior or GNB.

I merely said that I don't want so much mobility that it devalues any other uptime-saving trick a kit might offer. And when even the jobs tied for least mobile have more than they need, that becomes inevitable.

You're incorrect on that one - I did give example referencing the PvP DRK equivalent of Plunge.

I... know. I'm aware of what I quoted. Although I guess I should have been more careful in not calling it new since, while PvP Plunge has long since existed and Sole Survivor was already in PvE, PvE Plunge doesn't yet apply Sole Survivor?

Admittedly I guess I should have read more into its just being one possible example instead of that one thing exactly, though. My bad.

Again, I have no problem with the bonus effects; hence my defense of PvP Plunge and the like earlier.

I just have a problem with bringing each job's capacity in some category (be it mobility or whatever other situational matter) up to(wards) that the jobs that are most focused around that capacity. I'd rather see more distinct ways to provide that that don't then devalue the difference between kits.

At this point we seem mostly agreed on that, yes? If anything, I'm probably just more wary of how a kit having an excess of easy access to a given capacity can then devalue its less-accessible means of adding to that capacity.

(See non-standard lines on BLM (less accessible, more involved, and to many more interesting) --> instant-casts ad nauseum, or even old Plunge knockback nullifications vs. Arm's Length, for instance.)

That said, my suggestion to have both of them comes from trying to appease both the side that "dashes shouldn't do damage, they should be for utility", hence keeping Shadowstride for a pure mobility tool but also the side that wants Plunge back, which is a satisfying button visually but could be made more interesting.

And again, that I think would be the worst of both worlds.

The first makes no more sense than "heals shouldn't have barriers; they should be separate." The uptime retained through closing a gap is as surely damage as the potency the skill itself does. The concern is nonsense that is not worth offering awkward bloat to pander to, especially for so long as there are multiple charges available to the damaging gap-closer. (Accordingly, though, removing that extra charge then creates at least as much of a problem even for that target group as what a separate Shadowstride would be meant to prevent, all while adding an extra button's cost and reducing DRK offensive APM.)

You best satisfy both worlds with, quite simply, a flick to the forehead for those who can't understand that increased uptime increases average DPS, and two charges of Plunge. Failing that, though, 2 charges of Shadowstride would still be better than a single charge of each.

[MayuAmakura]

Yeah I 100% agree with that one. Its kind of whack how we actually used to have some interesting interaction (MP and Blood actions fed into each other for instance) and now we got... kinda nothing.

Doesnt have to return to the old days, but man even the PvP kits have more interesting and complex kit interactions with half the buttons. Kinda whack.

Honestly some classes are much more enjoyable in pvp than in pve counterpart. What is fun in pvp is that casting time for spells isn't 2.5 seconds. Most casters have insanely fast casting speeds of like 1 second or 1.33 which feels super refreshing because you generally have a faster gameplay and a bit more complex combos than pve. On top of that there are cool abilities and just feels good. But pvp suffers from balance because devs made some classes very strong consistently throughout the patches while others suffered whole expansion.

As we speak about "more complex" combos, they sadly did nerf PvP a bit to make it more accessible for newer players. This is another thing that I started to hate with DT. While pvp mode is still fun, they are slowly leaning towards pve path.

Red mage got nerfed by removing black / white stance. This is what made this class hard to play. Now it's easy with loads of shields and insane survival-ability.
Gunbreaker had junctions and this was pain for everyone so they decided to make it super easy now and mega broken for patches. Nobody likes to play against this savage thing.
Astrologian - don't want to talk about this monstrosity.

I'm not saying that I don't like class changes but this effectively makes it that everybody spams 2-3 classes in every single ranked game because of how good they are and this creates a boring gameplay. I am tired of seeing red mage, astro and gnb in every game.
There are still skills needed for monk or others (which makes them rarer to see) but in general their trend is slowly getting up here as well.

Edit: I am also not sure the reason behind adding two additional ranks for pvp when the game mode is already dead and less and less players with each patch? I guess this is made for JP since they are always active but NA/EU dies pretty fast.

[BigCheez]

You didn't have to, though. If you could legitimately use it as a mobility tool, it was a damage LOSS to waste that opportunity by saving it for raidbuffs and instead walking back.

On a 200p skill, using your gap-closer under raidbuffs could net you an extra 25 potency, tops. Each GCD for which you were forced to use a ranged filler instead of continuing your optimal damage would cost most tanks over 300 effective-potency.

Removing the potency only simply offers, in effect, one extra charge of mobility (since you would otherwise face damage loss from overcapping it), negligible when already at 2 charges. The primary changes were to APM and cognitive load (no longer being rewarded for knowing whether there was a gap to close within your skill's recast time).

Plunge was 150 potency iirc. You were missing a lot more than 25 potency by using it outside of personal, raid buff and potentially pot windows. Overcapping also only applies to WAR and DRK. Due to having 1 minute personal buffs, PLD and GNB would never overcap if spending all of their charges in personal buff windows and could never use their gap closer freely without incurring a damage loss.

Thanks to not having a personal DPS buff, WAR at least gets 1 free charge to use wherever it wants per 2 minutes. PLD does not, though.

Regardless of how big or small the loss is, it's still stupid to give players movement utility and punish them for using it. Let the gap closer be a gap closer.