@Casuals , do you think the message has gotten through?

[Valence]

It's always amusing to read all those reactionary takes on dungeons and casual content. Pulling weights, wasting people's time. I do genuinely wonder why do you people care so much? Are you having such a miserable time playing the game that wasting a couple of minutes is infuriating? Why are you running the content in the first place if you hate it so much? Why do you get mad at people that are just there to chill and still complete the content just fine? Why don't you focus more on your own sweaty gameplay?

Is it a problem that the content doesn't ask more than Cure 1 or whatever nonsense? Sure. Probably.

But this ain't savage chief.

And yet people tend to praise PvP in this game. (I personally despise all the "crowd control.")

But going back to Strayborough, the adds just need a little orange AoE marker in front of them indicating how far they'll lunge, because I feel like that's what the encounter design is going for and not communicating effectively.

Crowd control can feel very frustrating when there is an overabundance of it, but that's absolutely not comparable to this boss at all. No stun in pvp lasts more than 2-3s, and you're free. You also have multiple tools to deal with it and nullify crowd control. You also have tactical agency whether or not you want to burn your tools to get rid of said cc if you consider that they're not immediately threatening.

I feel this comparison is extremely misinformed.

[Mawlzy]

It's always amusing to read all those reactionary takes on dungeons and casual content. Pulling weights, wasting people's time. I do genuinely wonder why do you people care so much? Are you having such a miserable time playing the game that wasting a couple of minutes is infuriating? Why are you running the content in the first place if you hate it so much? Why do you get mad at people that are just there to chill and still complete the content just fine? Why don't you focus more on your own sweaty gameplay?

Is it a problem that the content doesn't ask more than Cure 1 or whatever nonsense? Sure. Probably.

But this ain't savage chief.



Crowd control can feel very frustrating when there is an overabundance of it, but that's absolutely not comparable to this boss at all. No stun in pvp lasts more than 2-3s, and you're free. You also have multiple tools to deal with it and nullify crowd control. You also have tactical agency whether or not you want to burn your tools to get rid of said cc if you consider that they're not immediately threatening.

I feel this comparison is extremely misinformed.

Crowd control in FL was a hot topic in 6.X with people asking for caps on the number of players it hit and/or an immune period after each hit, but the 7.2 changes ameliorated it somewhat and players who worry about such things have got better at positioning with the new ranges.

[AmiableApkallu]

Crowd control can feel very frustrating when there is an overabundance of it, but that's absolutely not comparable to this boss at all. No stun in pvp lasts more than 2-3s, and you're free. You also have multiple tools to deal with it and nullify crowd control. You also have tactical agency whether or not you want to burn your tools to get rid of said cc if you consider that they're not immediately threatening.

I feel this comparison is extremely misinformed.

Stuns are not the only loss of agency. Binds, silences, knockbacks, draw-ins... these all exist. Each one might be only a couple seconds, but it adds up if the other team decides to focus them all at you. The cumulative effect is like a stream of bad luck with a Paralyze debuff in PvE: try to do a thing, zap, try again, zap, maybe this time, nope zap. And given the nature of PvP, there's probably something I was trying to react to or do every time I get zapped.

I find Strayborough to be far more chill by comparison. Sure, maybe I lose control, but it's not like I was really doing anything in the first place (lol, does my DPS rotation really count?).

[Mawlzy]

Stuns are not the only loss of agency. Binds, silences, knockbacks, draw-ins... these all exist. Each one might be only a couple seconds, but it adds up if the other team decides to focus them all at you. The cumulative effect is like a stream of bad luck with a Paralyze debuff in PvE: try to do a thing, zap, try again, zap, maybe this time, nope zap. And given the nature of PvP, there's probably something I was trying to react to or do every time I get zapped.

I find Strayborough to be far more chill by comparison. Sure, maybe I lose control, but it's not like I was really doing anything in the first place (lol, does my DPS rotation really count?).

Certainly not saying the current situation is perfect, but for the most part the jobs that are getting targeted with CC (tank/melee) are the ones that have the best resources to counter.

But to me the big difference is that vast variety of situations you find in PvP. Each fight is different and thus has repeatability. The only repeatability in PvE is trying again when you fail.

Also worth noting, given the ongoing dissatisfaction with healers in PvE, that healers in PvP are some of the most interesting and important jobs to play.

[AmiableApkallu]

Certainly not saying the current situation is perfect, but for the most part the jobs that are getting targeted with CC (tank/melee) are the ones that have the best resources to counter.

But to me the big difference is that vast variety of situations you find in PvP. Each fight is different and thus has repeatability. The only repeatability in PvE is trying again when you fail.

Also worth noting, given the ongoing dissatisfaction with healers in PvE, that healers in PvP are some of the most interesting and important jobs to play.

lol. I take WHM into PvP. I guess by your own admission, I don't actually have the best resources to counter crowd control? But ignoring that, what exactly are my counters?

Furthermore, if I'm playing such an important job/role, then that probably explains why it feels like the other team is throwing all their crowd control at me.

[Mawlzy]

lol. I take WHM into PvP. I guess by your own admission, I don't actually have the best resources to counter crowd control? But ignoring that, what exactly are my counters?

Furthermore, if I'm playing such an important job/role, then that probably explains why it feels like the other team is throwing all their crowd control at me.

Your primary resource/counter is range.

Most of your dangerous opponents in FL are using target nearest rather than tab. A WHM should never be the nearest to the front line.

But yeah AST and WHM will attract counter-measures if they get too close because they are such powerful jobs in the current meta.

[AmiableApkallu]

Your primary resource/counter is range.

Most of your dangerous opponents in FL...

Who said I was talking about FL? That's not the only PvP mode...

Also, this quaint notion of "range"... yes, I can spend all my time running away from every one who's trying to chase me down, but then I'll be doing nothing useful while getting killed anyway.

Aquaveil
Creates a barrier around self or target party member that absorbs damage equivalent to a heal of 8,000 potency.
Duration: 10s
Additional Effect: Nullifies one status affliction that can be removed by Purify
Barrier potency is doubled when successfully nullifying a status affliction.

Unless, of course, I used it on someone else in the party... because, you know, healer, maybe that's what a healer ought to be doing? Maybe there was someone in the thick-of-combat who looked like they needed an assist right then and there?

Don't also forget Miracle of Nature (Aka Kappa ) which is a very good CC

Unless, of course, the player that "needs" CC isn't actually in range, or spent a split second to peak out from behind a wall before hiding again...

It's all good and well to list out theoretical possibilities, but actual practice and combat are very different. And thus far, no one's mentioned anything useful and actionable that couldn't have been gleaned from the official job guides.

But then, that's what makes PvP "interesting", yah? The fact that it's so varied that you can't reduce explanations down to a few pithy phrases.

But none of this gets at my original point:

[G]oing back to Strayborough, the adds just need a little orange AoE marker in front of them indicating how far they'll lunge, because I feel like that's what the encounter design is going for and not communicating effectively.

There is plenty of PvE content that prevents you from acting as you desire, and no one complains about any of that... aside from Strayborough... because all of those other instances make it clear what you have to do to avoid a sad fate, at least in retrospect.

[Mawlzy]

Who said I was talking about FL? That's not the only PvP mode...

Also, this quaint notion of "range"... yes, I can spend all my time running away from every one who's trying to chase me down, but then I'll be doing nothing useful while getting killed anyway.

You didn't specify, hence I shared what I know of FL since it's the mode where I have some expertise.

Range doesn't mean running away, it means positioning yourself relative to your tank/melee such that you can do your job as they do theirs.

[Lorika]

Who said I was talking about FL? That's not the only PvP mode...

Also, this quaint notion of "range"... yes, I can spend all my time running away from every one who's trying to chase me down, but then I'll be doing nothing useful while getting killed anyway.



Unless, of course, I used it on someone else in the party... because, you know, healer, maybe that's what a healer ought to be doing? Maybe there was someone in the thick-of-combat who looked like they needed an assist right then and there?



Unless, of course, the player that "needs" CC isn't actually in range, or spent a split second to peak out from behind a wall before hiding again...

It's all good and well to list out theoretical possibilities, but actual practice and combat are very different. And thus far, no one's mentioned anything useful and actionable that couldn't have been gleaned from the official job guides.

But then, that's what makes PvP "interesting", yah? The fact that it's so varied that you can't reduce explanations down to a few pithy phrases.

But none of this gets at my original point:



There is plenty of PvE content that prevents you from acting as you desire, and no one complains about any of that... aside from Strayborough... because all of those other instances make it clear what you have to do to avoid a sad fate, at least in retrospect.

Healer in PvP doesn't mean "healing". In fact WHM and SGE are more akin to "green" DPS with healing capabilities (AST and SCH are more Buffer/Debuffer than healer).
So, first thing :you are never in the back. You must always be in the middle of pack. The ideal range is where you can attack, disrupt the enemies, but also buff and help your allies.

For Aquaveil : you only use on yourself. For the other you have Seraph Strike (and stone skin in front).
For Miracle of Nature, you don't use it defensively but offensively. Generaly the main target are Tanks.... Because thoses job need to be in melee and they really love to use their gap closer. So they tend to happily jump into the ennemies group! And here come Miracle of Nature : a nasty present for feisty Tanks
Also, you never hard cast Cure, it can easily be interupt and you better off casting any other skills (In case you're focused and alone : Seraph Strike (Mit + Stacks of Glare IV + Instant Curee II) + Aquaveil(Shield). Like that you have far more than enough tools to survive and attack while fleeing or waiting for someone to come help you....A well played WHM can take forever to kill).

So, conclusin : WHM is a "Green" DPS. You attack first. Support and healing come with the offense (Seraph Strike for mit and Cure II, Afflatus Purgation for Stun and temperance). you don't stay in the back for healing, it's not the way WHM is played in PvP.

[Lorika]

lol. I take WHM into PvP. I guess by your own admission, I don't actually have the best resources to counter crowd control? But ignoring that, what exactly are my counters?

Furthermore, if I'm playing such an important job/role, then that probably explains why it feels like the other team is throwing all their crowd control at me.

Aquaveil
Creates a barrier around self or target party member that absorbs damage equivalent to a heal of 8,000 potency.
Duration: 10s
Additional Effect: Nullifies one status affliction that can be removed by Purify
Barrier potency is doubled when successfully nullifying a status affliction.

It's work really well on a lot of status effects (personally i use it when i'm inflicted with heavy)
Don't also forget Mirace of Nature (Aka Kappa ) which is a very good CC (It also make the target lose 2500 MP, which is huge)
And Afflatus Purgation is still one of the best LB (20k damages to all ennemis in a straight line + a stun + and HP regen for all the ally)
Even Seraph Strike (the Gap Closer) is one of the best since it give a 8% mit to all the ally + instant Cure II (one of the best heal in PvP) + 3 Glave IV (which are instant)

WHM is still one of the best job in PvP.