Difficult experience in Forked Tower – a reminder to respect public content

[Aravell]

Do you two have any idea how ridiculous this sounds?

Apparently this whole process is an absolute nightmare, so you are trying to elicit sympathy?

Has it occurred to either of you that clearing FT is not actually compulsory?

No, I'm pointing out that the 1 random person that chooses not to leave when politely asked to (at no cost to them, I might add) is lacking in empathy. People arguing that the 1 random person deserves to be there is also partially making the argument that 1 person is more important than the efforts of 48 people.

Also, clearing FT not being compulsory can be turned right back to the random players who take spots from organised groups, why is it so important for them to enter that it's being argued that they have more of a right to be there than discord groups? It's not compulsory to clear, no?

[Mawlzy]

No, I'm pointing out that the 1 random person that chooses not to leave when politely asked to (at no cost to them, I might add) is lacking in empathy. People arguing that the 1 random person deserves to be there is also partially making the argument that 1 person is more important than the efforts of 48 people.

Also, clearing FT not being compulsory can be turned right back to the random players who take spots from organised groups, why is it so important for them to enter that it's being argued that they have more of a right to be there than discord groups? It's not compulsory to clear, no?

I see, so it's a sort of numerical might is right, plus you've been through a terrible ordeal organizing it.

I suspect a key issue is that nowhere else in the game is there a situation in which someone will be asked to leave, politely or otherwise. So in that sense, SE has done something unique.

I still can't imagine why you engage with the content, though. Like if you really wanted to pressure SE, with your organizational skills you could have organized a boycott.

[Kasumii]

No, I'm pointing out that the 1 random person that chooses not to leave when politely asked to (at no cost to them, I might add) is lacking in empathy. People arguing that the 1 random person deserves to be there is also partially making the argument that 1 person is more important than the efforts of 48 people.

Also, clearing FT not being compulsory can be turned right back to the random players who take spots from organised groups, why is it so important for them to enter that it's being argued that they have more of a right to be there than discord groups? It's not compulsory to clear, no?

It is content in the game they pay for. This isnt some "Haha gotcha" moment for you.
Nobody is saying one person is worth more than 48 others. We are saying they are both equal. You have no more right telling Johnny Random to go away than Johnny Random has a right to participate in the content. It is not on Johnny Random (or the discords). This entire system is flawed and is 100% SEs fault. Johnny Random just plays by the games rules and participates in the cipher lottery.

Basic empathy also goes both ways. Basic empathy is *not* bowing down to the mighty discord/streamer overlords who told them to "piss off" (But Im saying it nicely uwu).

If Johnny Random gets in is it basic empathy to then tell them "We wont rez you."? Doesn't sound very empathic to me.

[Jeeqbit]

Except the "fully organized group" isn't the INTENT

If that's true, then go and PUG it? SE left their "organized group content" calling card on it - which is limited rez. If it was the intent, we'd all be pugging it like we did CLL, DR and Dalriada in Shadowbringers.

given the acknowledged "they deliberately got someone killed and refused to rez them"

By all accounts I've read, the people who die are not killed on purpose. Rather, they are killed by a tank buster they stood in because they don't know the mechanics. This seems overwhelmingly likely to happen to people who enter on their own without discord callouts. Rezzing is a risk due to the their lack of cooperation with the rest of the players there and the fact their lack of coordination can cause the rest of them to fail. I'm sure nobody has a problem linking them the discords if they genuinely don't know about them.

I understand the point trying to be made. I just disagree with the "people aren't saying it's okay to be a jerk" part

It's important to also understand that these forums are cross-region. People in the EU region are, on average, far more blunt and more sweaty when it comes to raids. They will more often call people out directly and be rude in dungeons. For some that may actually be the language barrier where pleasantries get lost in translation, but for others it's very cultural. In comparison, the NA region is pretty casual overall - both its attitudes and its raiders. I can always rely on an average NA player to just have returned to the game after a long break or to have a miniscule amount of playtime, and to thus be way more chill - and underprepared.

So here on the forums we have a mix of NA and EU posters but it is actually reflected in the game as well; in my experience the EU region players will bluntly call you out for things in the most rude way even in dungeons/MSQ content, demand blog, in ways the NA region just doesn't really care about much in comparison.

Don't get me wrong. There are loads of truly nice, kind-hearted people in the EU region and that's probably even the majority, but in an average day, you will actually run into such "blunt" players in the EU region and that's been my experience on any day or any year I've logged into the EU worlds, but is virtually never the case while playing in NA.

Also, while we may be pleasant in the game, we tell the truth here on the forums. To the developers, and to eachother. And while it may not be easy to read sometimes, it's important for there to be a space where you can get the truth. So if I say the word "snipe" on the forums, I'm being blunt, but that doesn't mean I'd say it to them directly in the game, because that would be rude. But on the forums? Again, this is where you come to get the truth, or to ask posters to figure out the truth together.

I have had people barge into shout chat demanding half the instance leaves so their beloved discord group can do FT.

Never seen that. Depending on the context, it could be a joke or the person may not actually represent the discord itself. It's hard for a discord server to regulate the actions of 48 players in the game. But you absolutely shouldn't leave, because you can't guarantee everyone else will. The discord servers are more likely to try and find an instance with the appropriate space, because that's a lot more logical.

Having been denied the ability to interact with FT, and been given bugger all else to do of any merit for nearly 12 months, they may very well conclude that the only way they can actually interact with FT is to scupper as many Discord runs as possible.

Hey maybe they will even start their own Discord. Something like FF14FFT. And you will be well and truly forked.

The thing is that there are already multiple discords that do it on some data centers / regions. I believe they have to concede coordinating with eachother to avoid drama because of the way it works or when participation drops.

And what this all comes back to, regardless of the point being made, is that the design of this just doesn't work and SE needs to make it like DRS if they want it to be a High-End duty, and like CLL/Dalriada/DR if they want it to be casual. Those methods worked about as well as they are going to for the respective difficulties.

[Carin-Eri]

F**ked Tower really is something. Rarely has an issue caused this level of division both in-game AND in the forum/social media communities.

Congrats to SE for creating something that has caused such a huge, and completely avoidable, divide.

[Aravell]

It is content in the game they pay for. This isnt some "Haha gotcha" moment for you.
Nobody is saying one person is worth more than 48 others. We are saying they are both equal. You have no more right telling Johnny Random to go away than Johnny Random has a right to participate in the content. It is not on Johnny Random (or the discords). This entire system is flawed and is 100% SEs fault. Johnny Random just plays by the games rules and participates in the cipher lottery.

Basic empathy also goes both ways. Basic empathy is *not* bowing down to the mighty discord/streamer overlords who told them to "piss off" (But Im saying it nicely uwu).

If Johnny Random gets in is it basic empathy to then tell them "We wont rez you."? Doesn't sound very empathic to me.

Let me ask you then, if you go through all the effort to get 48 people into one instance to clear FT and someone chucks in 3 ciphers and takes the spot of a key role, which then makes the content unclearable, would you happily accept them? No annoyance at all? Just pure acceptance to raise them happily even though they can walk themselves into a trap and annihilate 23 other people? It's not a gotcha to point out the fact that it works both ways, if one says clearing FT isn't compulsory to discount the organised group, then the random person also has no reason compelling them to be there and can freely leave.

It's the same as people raving on about how good third party sites are in clearing out "prog liars" from their savage PF, discord organisation is just done to improve the chances of a clear.

Like it or not, it's not against the ToS to politely ask people to allow the organised group to enter uncontested. It's also not against ToS to not heal and raise someone not in your party, it may be rude to the person that just died, but it's still not against ToS.

I honestly want to know the reasoning behind the twisted logic that people seem to have about how discord groups are evil for wanting to clear the content and that it's not compulsory to clear the content, yet it's somehow also imperative for the random player to be able to enter the tower and have fun in the content? It doesn't make sense to me, it just looks like 2 sets of standards and reeks of bias against organised groups.

[TaleraRistain]

“Sniper” is just a colloquial term from BA discourse. Few people actually mean it in an intentionally offensive way

If they don't mean it offensively, then they probably need to adopt a different term if their intention is not to be hostile. Because you can see from people in this very thread that that term has hostility attached to it. They can just use something like randoms or unexpected members. It's also a way they can actively call out those still using the more hostile term and help police their own community's image.

[Jeeqbit]

if they really do not wish to engage and interact with randoms

These discords are no stranger to randoms due to BA, and some of them do welcome them in, despite that they may be taking a spot from someone who planned their role in the raid. It's less likely they are taking someone's spot when it's old because they won't always have 48 players signed up, but FT is new, so.

I've noticed that some people around here just have a not at all concealed massive hate bias for people who raid

This is true as well but I think it stems from anxiety. Anxiety leads to not engaging with the raids or discords and that is sometimes expressed as "us versus them". When if they actually joined the raids and discords they'd find plenty of nice and chill people.

How I know this is because I struggle with anxiety myself in this area but have still managed some of the raids.

[ChrysOCE]

I honestly want to know the reasoning behind the twisted logic that people seem to have about how discord groups are evil for wanting to clear the content and that it's not compulsory to clear the content, yet it's somehow also imperative for the random player to be able to enter the tower and have fun in the content? It doesn't make sense to me, it just looks like 2 sets of standards and reeks of bias against organised groups.

Resentment and frustration, aimed at the wrong people, for CBU3 utterly screwing up what should have been an easy and simple implementation of Field Ops?

[TaleraRistain]

I think that nails it. That is the vibe I am also getting and have been getting from the community for a while. Try doing OC at peak times on aether. I have had people barge into shout chat demanding half the instance leaves so their beloved discord group can do FT.
And that just makes me unreasonably angry. What right do you have to tell others to leave and make room for you and your clique?

Good grief, are they? I can see the argument for inside FT and what they may or may not do there, but they had the gall to tell the rest of the outside instance to leave? I hope the rest of the instance told them where to get off. That's the ultimate in entitled thinking. They can go instance hop or bring 72 total people to "hold" the instance for them. They can't expect the rest of the community to leave just to suit them.