Difficult experience in Forked Tower – a reminder to respect public content

[Tyintheron]

It’s your right to enter the content, it’s not your right to enter the content and benefit from pre organisation that you didn’t help with

Except that's how the system is set up. Clearly the INTENT is to allow a grab bag of randos to blindly stumble their way to victory rather than just premade groups galore. I get that that doesn't really WORK, but it's clearly still the INTENT, so waving around the word "rights" as if it's some set-in-stone rule feels like an overblown way to self-justify the hostility on display.

The amount of "if you even POTENTIALLY inconvenience me it's ok for me to be a jerk to you" in this thread is really, really troubling.

[Supersnow845]

Except that's how the system is set up. Clearly the INTENT is to allow a grab bag of randos to blindly stumble their way to victory rather than just premade groups galore. I get that that doesn't really WORK, but it's clearly still the INTENT, so waving around the word "rights" as if it's some set-in-stone rule feels like an overblown way to self-justify the hostility on display.

The amount of "if you even POTENTIALLY inconvenience me it's ok for me to be a jerk to you" in this thread is really, really troubling.

Yes it’s intended for a grab bag of randoms to complete it even if that doesn’t work at all.

However there is a difference between “grab bag of randoms” and fully organised run where 1-2 spaces is taken by a random. If “grab bag of randoms” actually worked the organisation wouldn’t be necessary anyway

As the person who responded to OP stated they still offered a hand but in a grab bag of randoms nobody owes you anything anyway beyond bot actively griefing. Especially since the person who replied to OP showed OP died due to their own mistake, nobody killed them

So by the standards of grab bag of randoms the organised group did nothing wrong anyway

[Tyintheron]

Yes it’s intended for a grab bag of randoms to complete it even if that doesn’t work at all.

However there is a difference between “grab bag of randoms” and fully organised run where 1-2 spaces is taken by a random. If “grab bag of randoms” actually worked the organisation wouldn’t be necessary anyway

As the person who responded to OP stated they still offered a hand but in a grab bag of randoms nobody owes you anything anyway beyond bot actively griefing. Especially since the person who replied to OP showed OP died due to their own mistake, nobody killed them

So by the standards of grab bag of randoms the organised group did nothing wrong anyway

Except the "fully organized group" isn't the INTENT, it's the player-created EXCEPTION. They know the rules, and they know the way it works. Getting mad at the world for not bending to you and your friends' almighty will is the messed up part, here.

Imagine that a new set of Pokemon cards come out, and if you can buy the whole box, you get the whole set, guaranteed! So you and your buddies at the Lower East Side Pokemon Fight Club agree to buy one pack each - your group wants the whole set, and if you can't get all the packs you won't get that guaranteed win!

But then - HORRORS - a little girl comes in and has the GALL to not recognize how tough it was to get 25 40-year-old Pokemon nerds into a single shop at the same time. And when you explain to her you guys really NEED all the cards because if you can't have ALL the cards life isn't worth living, and organizing big groups of nerds is hard, and then hint that you can't guarantee she won't have a horrible accident on the way home if she sticks around.

But she just wants to buy a pack. She heard this new set was cool! And, EVEN WORSE, she's third-last in line because Jerry and Steve were 5 minutes late. So in spite of your group's allegedly-justified moral outrage, she buys her pack anyway. Because there's no rule that says she can't, and she saved up, just like the rest of you.

Then you slash her bike's tyres on the way out, and congratulate yourselves on a job well done because HOW DARE SHE. We're clearly in the right because... something about Discord, for some reason..?

That's kinda the vibe, here.

And, I've gotta be honest - "the organized group did nothing wrong anyway" is a heck of a take to have, given the acknowledged "they deliberately got someone killed and refused to rez them" part of the story. You can say you would've done the same because you feel your prioities outweigh everyone else's all the time, but it doesn't make it "nothing wrong."

[Kasumii]

I think that nails it. That is the vibe I am also getting and have been getting from the community for a while. Try doing OC at peak times on aether. I have had people barge into shout chat demanding half the instance leaves so their beloved discord group can do FT.
And that just makes me unreasonably angry. What right do you have to tell others to leave and make room for you and your clique?

I think the whole system SE made with FT is just backwards.

Its a piece of content clearly designed for the upper .1% of players (yet again) but with entry requirements that make it look and feel like CLL or dalriada from Bozja.
They need to desperately rework the entire system completely. Remove FT and put it in its own bubble like DRS and give us some actual decent casual content like CLL back. Have it give us coins or gear upgrade mats. There is so much they COULD have done and instead they pandered to the hardcore crowd yet again in a move that leaves both casuals and hardcore players dissatisfied...

[TaleraRistain]

I think that nails it. That is the vibe I am also getting and have been getting from the community for a while. Try doing OC at peak times on aether. I have had people barge into shout chat demanding half the instance leaves so their beloved discord group can do FT.
And that just makes me unreasonably angry. What right do you have to tell others to leave and make room for you and your clique?

Good grief, are they? I can see the argument for inside FT and what they may or may not do there, but they had the gall to tell the rest of the outside instance to leave? I hope the rest of the instance told them where to get off. That's the ultimate in entitled thinking. They can go instance hop or bring 72 total people to "hold" the instance for them. They can't expect the rest of the community to leave just to suit them.

[Jeeqbit]

Except the "fully organized group" isn't the INTENT

If that's true, then go and PUG it? SE left their "organized group content" calling card on it - which is limited rez. If it was the intent, we'd all be pugging it like we did CLL, DR and Dalriada in Shadowbringers.

given the acknowledged "they deliberately got someone killed and refused to rez them"

By all accounts I've read, the people who die are not killed on purpose. Rather, they are killed by a tank buster they stood in because they don't know the mechanics. This seems overwhelmingly likely to happen to people who enter on their own without discord callouts. Rezzing is a risk due to the their lack of cooperation with the rest of the players there and the fact their lack of coordination can cause the rest of them to fail. I'm sure nobody has a problem linking them the discords if they genuinely don't know about them.

I understand the point trying to be made. I just disagree with the "people aren't saying it's okay to be a jerk" part

It's important to also understand that these forums are cross-region. People in the EU region are, on average, far more blunt and more sweaty when it comes to raids. They will more often call people out directly and be rude in dungeons. For some that may actually be the language barrier where pleasantries get lost in translation, but for others it's very cultural. In comparison, the NA region is pretty casual overall - both its attitudes and its raiders. I can always rely on an average NA player to just have returned to the game after a long break or to have a miniscule amount of playtime, and to thus be way more chill - and underprepared.

So here on the forums we have a mix of NA and EU posters but it is actually reflected in the game as well; in my experience the EU region players will bluntly call you out for things in the most rude way even in dungeons/MSQ content, demand blog, in ways the NA region just doesn't really care about much in comparison.

Don't get me wrong. There are loads of truly nice, kind-hearted people in the EU region and that's probably even the majority, but in an average day, you will actually run into such "blunt" players in the EU region and that's been my experience on any day or any year I've logged into the EU worlds, but is virtually never the case while playing in NA.

Also, while we may be pleasant in the game, we tell the truth here on the forums. To the developers, and to eachother. And while it may not be easy to read sometimes, it's important for there to be a space where you can get the truth. So if I say the word "snipe" on the forums, I'm being blunt, but that doesn't mean I'd say it to them directly in the game, because that would be rude. But on the forums? Again, this is where you come to get the truth, or to ask posters to figure out the truth together.

I have had people barge into shout chat demanding half the instance leaves so their beloved discord group can do FT.

Never seen that. Depending on the context, it could be a joke or the person may not actually represent the discord itself. It's hard for a discord server to regulate the actions of 48 players in the game. But you absolutely shouldn't leave, because you can't guarantee everyone else will. The discord servers are more likely to try and find an instance with the appropriate space, because that's a lot more logical.

Having been denied the ability to interact with FT, and been given bugger all else to do of any merit for nearly 12 months, they may very well conclude that the only way they can actually interact with FT is to scupper as many Discord runs as possible.

Hey maybe they will even start their own Discord. Something like FF14FFT. And you will be well and truly forked.

The thing is that there are already multiple discords that do it on some data centers / regions. I believe they have to concede coordinating with eachother to avoid drama because of the way it works or when participation drops.

And what this all comes back to, regardless of the point being made, is that the design of this just doesn't work and SE needs to make it like DRS if they want it to be a High-End duty, and like CLL/Dalriada/DR if they want it to be casual. Those methods worked about as well as they are going to for the respective difficulties.

[Tyintheron]

If that's true, then go and PUG it? SE left their "organized group content" calling card on it - which is limited rez. If it was the intent, we'd all be pugging it like we did CLL, DR and Dalriada in Shadowbringers.

But that's the point, isn't it? That that's what the OP tried to do. There were no barriers in their way to doing it - just a group being jerks about it on the other side.

By all accounts I've read, the people who die are not killed on purpose. Rather, they are killed by a tank buster they stood in because they don't know the mechanics.

I mean, sure, that can happen. OP seemed quite sure they were deliberately killed, though, which seems to be supported by the fact they were then refused a res.

It's important to also understand that these forums are cross-region. People in the EU region are, on average, far more blunt and more sweaty when it comes to raids. They will more often call people out directly and be rude in dungeons.

I hear what you're saying. I'm just not sure why.

If "the truth" people are so interested in telling is "I'm okay with being a jerk to people in the game who get in my way" then more power to them on their self-reporting forum rampages, I guess.

The part I'm not sure about is whether you're telling me I should be more okay with someone tank-busting me because in French they'd say "Le Tank Busteurre, le croissant-head!" or something (important note: it's possible I do not speak any French), which is therefore a much more socially acceptable way of griefing me in Europe.

You'd better believe that if someone deliberately tank-busts me I'm writing angrily about them being mean in my dream journal at the end of the day, no matter WHERE they come from.

[Jeeqbit]

But that's the point, isn't it? That that's what the OP tried to do. There were no barriers in their way to doing it - just a group being jerks about it on the other side.

They weren't really jerks though. They politely explained the nature of the content but also said they could join if they absolutely insist since the game allows them to. But, naturally, that they could not realistically rez them if they mess up because it would sabotage the run.

This is something OP was aware of considering they watched a guide, so the explanation they were given about it needing premades would have made complete sense to them.

They would also have been aware that, if the other people there were a premade, that there are mechanics they could get wrong that would inconsiderately cause that premade 46 to be ejected. If I was in their position, I would not want to selfishly inconvenience that many people. That, in and of itself, would be as rude as joining a clear party in PF when I'm at fresh prog. We could make a similar argument for that "but SE technically lets you join the PF as fresh prog even though the rest of them are clear-ready therefore they must accept wiping for hours". It comes down to social interaction, which is exactly what took place.

I mean, sure, that can happen. OP seemed quite sure they were deliberately killed, though, which seems to be supported by the fact they were then refused a res.

If a rez means 46 people will have had their time wasted, it doesn't make logical sense to rez. There is an opportunity at the beginning to demonstrate they know the fight enough to not be a risk, but it doesn't seem they had the same experience the others there did.

The part I'm not sure about is whether you're telling me I should be more okay with someone tank-busting me because in French they'd say "Le Tank Busteurre, le croissant-head!"

That wasn't what I was saying. I was saying that it's regional and that people are assuming this entire incident is an NA issue and that NA are also this rude, but this incident was in the EU and so I was giving context that being rude/blunt is the "norm" in the EU compared to NA. All I'm saying is, just because this "rudeness" is a prevaling issue in all EU content types, doesn't mean it is in NA, and that minds should be open that NA discords don't necessarily operate the same way either.

[Mawlzy]

Except that's how the system is set up. Clearly the INTENT is to allow a grab bag of randos to blindly stumble their way to victory rather than just premade groups galore. I get that that doesn't really WORK, but it's clearly still the INTENT, so waving around the word "rights" as if it's some set-in-stone rule feels like an overblown way to self-justify the hostility on display.

The amount of "if you even POTENTIALLY inconvenience me it's ok for me to be a jerk to you" in this thread is really, really troubling.

This is a really good summary.

Some sort of flow chart might be useful to best illustrate this, but roughly:

Casual content drops in OC --> the capstone is FT --> the entry method is (a really bad) FFA --> BA veterans realize this is not puggable --> Discords create mega-statics --> unaware randos have the temerity to attempt to engage with FT --> mega-statics justify ToS violations on the grounds SE produced awful content again.

[Jeeqbit]

Except that's how the system is set up. Clearly the INTENT is to allow a grab bag of randos to blindly stumble their way to victory rather than just premade groups galore. I get that that doesn't really WORK, but it's clearly still the INTENT, so waving around the word "rights" as if it's some set-in-stone rule feels like an overblown way to self-justify the hostility on display.

The amount of "if you even POTENTIALLY inconvenience me it's ok for me to be a jerk to you" in this thread is really, really troubling.

Most people aren't even saying it's ok to be a jerk, or to be rude, and again you can use the various reporting procedures that exist if someone is, be it SE's or the Discord server's, so they can investigate the individual.

They're just making the point that the Discords are there to help with something that probably won't get setup successfully any other way because of the coordination it requires to prevent a wipe. Typically these Discords have someone who does callouts. You simply move however they say and then you clear. This is how I got my BA clear. They often enjoy doing this so much that they continue doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, to help people. That's it...

This thread is a lot funnier when you realise a lot of people here are pushing 40 arguing why it's okay to kill randoms and bm their corpse in a video game because their discord buddies didn't get into the raid

Generally speaking, they aren't "buddies". There are 15-20,000 in most of these discords and over 40,000 in one of the others. They are randoms, just that these randoms were able to paste a discord link into their discord client.