Please reduce tank healing power by a lot

[Voryn]

I've done alot of duty's and the amount of ppl I've seen saying sorry after a death / wipe in those is astounding.

Hot take: WIPES HAPPEN SO PPL CAN LEARN - can't commit to the timer? Don't que with random and get on a DC or grab an FC with ppl on your own level.

I've done multiple mentor roulettes where the timer runs out and I've had so much fun just talking strategy with new comers.

This is an MMO not a run through everything and get what I want simulator.

I agree, it’s not a huge deal if there’s wipes. I’m just wondering if others will still have the patience. Like we occasionally see people leave in Pharos Sirrius if there’s wipes, or people leave the Nier raids since they wanted a faster alliance raids.

And honestly I’d probably play healer in roulettes more if the responsibility was higher, both from getting more enjoyment and from maybe wanting to make sure it goes faster if I’m ever in a rush.

If a healer dies at the start of a battle then it doesn't seem fair that they have to spectate for the rest of the fight whilst a tank heals the rest of the party without any issues. Nerfing the amount of self healing they can do also lets healers use their single target GCD heals more often, alleviating glare/broil/malefic/dosis spam.

I agree that it sucks when healers die and then just spectate for a few minutes, but it would to be done in a way that doesn’t break the high-end raids. The damage output in normal content needs to be what changes (or maybe some of tanks’s personal utility would need to be moved to healers instead). Also, just changing tanks wouldn’t be enough to make healers need to use gcd heals in normal content.

[Supersnow845]

I agree, it’s not a huge deal if there’s wipes. I’m just wondering if others will still have the patience. Like we occasionally see people leave in Pharos Sirrius if there’s wipes, or people leave the Nier raids since they wanted a faster alliance raids.

And honestly I’d probably play healer in roulettes more if the responsibility was higher, both from getting more enjoyment and from maybe wanting to make sure it goes faster if I’m ever in a rush.



I agree that it sucks when healers die and then just spectate for a few minutes, but it would to be done in a way that doesn’t break the high-end raids. The damage output in normal content needs to be what changes (or maybe some of tanks’s personal utility would need to be moved to healers instead). Also, just changing tanks wouldn’t be enough to make healers need to use gcd heals in normal content.

Healer kits are incredibly overpowered in high end content as well. This isn’t about “we need to sacrifice casual content because it’s balanced around high end content”. The healer and tank kits are simply far far too powerful full stop. And they just keep making them more and more powerful. They literally gave the strongest healer in the game a CD reduction of its strongest skill (arguably the single strongest skill in the game in recitation) and gave it a god mode CD that doesn’t interfere with seraph.

There is no justification for the power of the healer kits

[Rithy255]

Healer kits are incredibly overpowered in high end content as well. This isn’t about “we need to sacrifice casual content because it’s balanced around high end content”. The healer and tank kits are simply far far too powerful full stop. And they just keep making them more and more powerful. They literally gave the strongest healer in the game a CD reduction of its strongest skill (arguably the single strongest skill in the game in recitation) and gave it a god mode CD that doesn’t interfere with seraph.

There is no justification for the power of the healer kits

That's the fundamental problem with tanks and healers, they are designed for a high output game with kits, but in reality even hard fights don't really need the amount of sustain, casual content makes this a problem tenfold.

SE will keep buffing tanks and healers for no reason, like my next bet is they will give tanks one raid wide buff and "unique defensive" (bulwark, thrill, ect) buff next expansion, while healers get either general upgrades to healing skills or a new Super skill likely after using one of your other heal buff skills.

They need to stop giving tank and healers new tools if they aren't actually going to use them, but my theory is they give them those skills to give the illusion that tanks/healers are getting more to do.

[Valence]

From that perspective yeah it's annoying and unfun when tanks are able to protect and keep a party alive, but it's also apart of tanks identity to protect allies, tanks and healers are both support jobs, Tanks jobs shouldn't be "dps with slightly more hp". If I'm playing a "Paladin" I expect to have some form of healing and protection, I don't want just be shield aggro bot.

Theirs a middle ground approach to making healers more useful in casual content, such as upping the healing while also keeping tank utility/protection/healing still impactful and useful. Maybe instead of just it being the tanks or healers job to mitigate, shield, protect and heal it should be a shared responsibility between the tank and healer which is how I view things. (Obviously you can put a more of a focus on healing on healers while tanks have a more mitigative focus, doesn't mean abilities can't also cross between both). You can certainly down survivability on tanks and I think that should be done, mostly with self mitigation values and warriors self healing being too much in casual content.

Lasty the reason why healers don't GCD heal has not much to do with tanks and more the fact their own kits are designed around having full healing uptime with the sheer amount of ogcd single/aoe heal spells they have, sure tanks do play apart but even if we removed all tank self/target healing, Healers would still never need to gcd heal, which doesn't really change glare spam. If you want healers to actually use GCD's you need to take away all ogcd healing, or actually up healing requirements to a point where gcd's become important.

Upping the healing is just a cope mechanic that forgets about DPS altogether. If healing requirements go up, then DPS will be the one left behind in the dust and they already are the first ones to die on the field. I am not especially fond of that kind of reactionary design that decides that instead of addressing the problem to the root, we need to crank up things until the system breaks, and that's exactly what SE has been doing with support roles and tanks so far on the opposite end of the spectrum, and see where it lead us (although they do it willingly specifically to remove responsibility from supports, healers not having to heal and tanks not being able to die easily). They first need to level the base playing field and re-balance it to more manageable levels because everything is lopsided right now.

I do kinda agree with a middle ground but with serious limits on tank healing. I want tanks to focus more on mitigation overall, and self healing in amounts based on player skill and tactical bursts rather than something one just presses every 25s and they're back to full life. This includes savage+ btw.

1) Self healing is fine if it threads a careful line, and because it's actually always been very fun and engaging even since the times of bloodbath WAR or Abyssal Drain DRK in the past. It's fine if it goes back to be tied to either long cooldowns or more interestingly, resources to spend and manage carefully. There is also a lot of different and creative ways to go about it like pvp does (check out how every tank self heals in there, it's very different and unique per job and some include barrier generation).
2) Healing other party members I want this mostly gone, except perhaps for PLD's identity, and Clemency should literally drain the PLD out of MP faster than currently.
3) OGCD heals on healers should cost MP at the minimum, and perhaps even more than GCD healing, because they're instant godlike tools. Or, alternatively, make them a lot weaker than GCDs, more like additional secondary support healing tools than main tools. Corollary, same as tank self healing, healer power needs to be kneecapped.

The obvious result I'd expect is a massive community outcry and an inability to adjust, much like we've already seen in M6S recently when SE tries to go back to things that used to exist before. The community expects convenience over gameplay.

[Rithy255]

Snip

I don't really understand your point about DPS, Dps will always be needed due to DPS checks alone, they will remain the most useful roles in game, Field content (such as fates open world ect) already has chocobos for healing, further if you want it so field content requires more healing you can always give field actions such as a GCD heal to DPS, a way for healers/tanks to gain a bit more damage in exchange.

I disagree with tanks focusing on mitigation more then they already do especially selfishly frankly tanks have so much Self mitigation which is the real issue on why healers never GCD heal, because even if you removed all healing from tanks then healers would still only ogcd the little amount of damage tanks take, I want tanks to be less durable but more about party/group protection.

Self healing right now especially for warrior is way above what it should be, Though I largely disagree that tanks shouldn't have any forms of target healing (nor does clemency need to be nerfed lol), their design should be based around Supporting the party (along with healers), they shouldn't outright "replace" healers but having some tools to grant a target some health is perfectly fine in a limited capacity. Content should take into account tank and healer kits, but obviously theirs some areas where it should be still toned down, I think more then anything we shouldn't look into one direction or one issue and reduce many factors of stacking issues.

If SE announced that they were going to remove all self/target heals from non healer's I'd prolly be a bit upset that my job has loss some of it's identity (a big part why I like "Paladins") I'd honestly expect people to have outcry and for good reason in some respect, I'm not saying don't nerf some aspects about tanks because I think they should have aspects nerfed but outside of heal potencies going down, Warrior is the only example of a job where I'd actually want to outright remove some self/target healing.

I'll say that I do want healers to actually heal, but if you ask me it's flawed if one weak regen on a skill like intervention can replace a entire role, if a regen like that can fill in for the healer role and replace a healer doesn't that actually say more about how flawed healer design currently is?

I frankly do not play tank to be a immortal shield bot with a slow DPS rotation and big Hp, I like tank for it's more supportive elements and while yeah sure I can "just go play a healer" but Healer designs are literally only mages, so for people like me who want a supportive melee class we have nothing but only tank. For me and a lot of others target mitigation + healing is fun, it would ruin a big part of tanks for me and again it's not like any of the healers appeal to me because they've really lacked on diversity in healer design, they will never make anything that even is remotely appealing to me.

[Carighan]

I don't really understand your point about DPS, Dps will always be needed due to DPS checks alone, they will remain the most useful roles in game

Sounds to me like DPS woud be in, ego-wise, for a whole expansion of fights where the boss dies on its own, and the goal is survival until that happens (so their job is defeating adds, not the actual boss). I mean WoW had a boss where the healers had to heal her back up to 100% for the fight to end and the players to win.

[Valence]

I don't really understand your point about DPS, Dps will always be needed due to DPS checks alone, they will remain the most useful roles in game, Field content (such as fates open world ect) already has chocobos for healing, further if you want it so field content requires more healing you can always give field actions such as a GCD heal to DPS, a way for healers/tanks to gain a bit more damage in exchange.

I disagree with tanks focusing on mitigation more then they already do especially selfishly frankly tanks have so much Self mitigation which is the real issue on why healers never GCD heal, because even if you removed all healing from tanks then healers would still only ogcd the little amount of damage tanks take, I want tanks to be less durable but more about party/group protection.

Self healing right now especially for warrior is way above what it should be, Though I largely disagree that tanks shouldn't have any forms of target healing (nor does clemency need to be nerfed lol), their design should be based around Supporting the party (along with healers), they shouldn't outright "replace" healers but having some tools to grant a target some health is perfectly fine in a limited capacity. Content should take into account tank and healer kits, but obviously theirs some areas where it should be still toned down, I think more then anything we shouldn't look into one direction or one issue and reduce many factors of stacking issues.

If SE announced that they were going to remove all self/target heals from non healer's I'd prolly be a bit upset that my job has loss some of it's identity (a big part why I like "Paladins") I'd honestly expect people to have outcry and for good reason in some respect, I'm not saying don't nerf some aspects about tanks because I think they should have aspects nerfed but outside of heal potencies going down, Warrior is the only example of a job where I'd actually want to outright remove some self/target healing.

I'll say that I do want healers to actually heal, but if you ask me it's flawed if one weak regen on a skill like intervention can replace a entire role, if a regen like that can fill in for the healer role and replace a healer doesn't that actually say more about how flawed healer design currently is?

I frankly do not play tank to be a immortal shield bot with a slow DPS rotation and big Hp, I like tank for it's more supportive elements and while yeah sure I can "just go play a healer" but Healer designs are literally only mages, so for people like me who want a supportive melee class we have nothing but only tank. For me and a lot of others target mitigation + healing is fun, it would ruin a big part of tanks for me and again it's not like any of the healers appeal to me because they've really lacked on diversity in healer design, they will never make anything that even is remotely appealing to me.

The point is that if we continue increasing healing and enemy damage output in order to make up for overpowered supports, wouldn't it fall more to reason instead to temper down what's overpowered in the first place? Thing is by increasing incoming violence to challenge support, you also increase violence against the dps role as a result and the dps role has currently no problem with it (and can die quite easily). If the idea is to continue pushing into that more and more lopsided direction tha makes everything so binary, you'll end up with dps that can only deal with one mistake and you're out, which is already a big problem in this game in my eyes. I'm not saying DPS or everyone should be able to take a beating before dying, but i'm saying the game's current model is all about binary fail checks (body checks, mechanical checks, aoe telegraph checks, off platform checks, and go at high level enough and everything will one tap everyone because it's not anymore about the battle system but about the dance that has to be perfect). This game design right there is one of the biggest reasons the enemy damage output has to stay low enough because to challenge healing and tanks otherwise you'd need insta taps. People can be healed in one or two taps, and can also be dropped in one or two unless they're tanks. WoW does it a lot better there, it's more gradual, it means you also have more time to recover. So what I'm trying to say is that by increasing this output you'll just put the final nail in the coffin of the battle system.

I didn't mean to give to tanks more mitigation either, I'm saying that a tank's primary and most available tools should be mitigators unless we want to completely dial back in time to og WAR that tried to replace mitigation with healing and HP manipulation (I'm not saying it's a bad thing actually, i'd be totally down for this, done right this time). I even specifically wrote that I do think skill expression through self healing mechanics can be very fun when tanking. Or through barriers (that's why the only tank I still like tanking with is DRK, because the barrier is fast recast and tied to resources that you can manage, but this mostly shines in dungeons because in bosses they're designed to work for the 3 other tanks and do not take advantage of TBN's specifics).

I do think clemency needs to be nerfed because otherwise it can replace a healer entirely and that's a problem in my book. I don't disagree with your view on tank healing mechanics, but I strongly disagree with the amount of power allowed for where the trinity doesn't fail. If your tank replaces the healer, then the trinity is broken, and if the answer is to increase damage output, then you make the system even more unstable and unsustainable for the reasons exposed above, and i'd rather dial down at the source of the problem, but without removing. For instance currently PLD has healing everywhere and it's a problem, and if we want to keep clemency for party support which i'm all for, then remove the passive self healing that came with EW, unless you remove all the barriers and mitigators, but having both is crazy, much like WAR has way too much on the self defense and survival part. I actually like clemency because unlike all the passive healing crap that you just get by doing your rotation, clemency has an opportunity cost. But as it currently stands it can also keep a party alive in casual content forever and replace a healer, and I don't like this.

I also DO want tanks to be more focused on covering for their allies. That's literally the main identity and draw to play tank in every game. Cover is the epitome of this. I've advocated for a while that prey mechanics come back in force and tanks get actual tools to help with that. Like cover/clemency. All the other ones are just whatever. But we also need encounter design to account for this, because it takes two to play this game.

I don't think we really disagree overall, it's just that we're both afraid of sliding too much into two opposite extremes.

[LilithGardenia]

I’m a War main and I play the other tanks a bit here and there and I can tell that they need to chill a bit because I’ve been part of runs where a healer dies and I can heal the other dps with shake off and I can arrange the party order to heal the lowest dps with nascent flash…basically making me unkilllabe and the tank busters are a joke because I can use a shield plus use equilibrium to heal back.would they change this in 8.0?I have doubts because 7.0 changes were a joke

[Zarkovitch]

Me doing Yans as Drk and see a healer do not gcd heals after my cds are out and invul is dead. No thanks, the mentality of healers right now is pathetic. I rather not giving them tools until the devs fix the gameplay aspect of healers. Then we talked.

[Supersnow845]

Me doing Yans as Drk and see a healer do not gcd heals after my cds are out and invul is dead. No thanks, the mentality of healers right now is pathetic. I rather not giving them tools until the devs fix the gameplay aspect of healers. Then we talked.

I don’t see the problem. If the healer underheals you should die, just as if you undermitigate then you die and then the healer dies

Self immortality because you don’t trust your allies is so a stupid in a co-op game