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  1. #111
    Player
    Valence's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    4,416
    Character
    Sunie Dakwhil
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Are you talking about pre shb dungeons now or before?

    Because it was possible to do it without healers, but it was definitely on another order of magnitude and pretending the opposite seems a little wild to me?
    (0)

  2. #112
    Player
    Oizen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2021
    Location
    playing other games like yoshida intended
    Posts
    2,407
    Character
    Alondite Ragnell
    World
    Marilith
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Tanks mitigation tools in general outpaced normal content, thats why all of them feel immortal there. It would be a big undertaking to fix this at this point because High end Content requires the mitigations to be where they are now, and you can't raise the floor of normal content due to the no paste-eaters left behind policy SE has taken on it.
    (3)

  3. #113
    Player
    aiqa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    356
    Character
    Eleasaid Seraqa
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Oizen View Post
    Tanks mitigation tools in general outpaced normal content, thats why all of them feel immortal there. It would be a big undertaking to fix this at this point because High end Content requires the mitigations to be where they are now, and you can't raise the floor of normal content due to the no paste-eaters left behind policy SE has taken on it.
    There is a huge difference between self healing on the different tank jobs, and even the tank with lowest self healing is viable. So they can normalize healing towards that baseline. And if there is more healing needed after that, buff healers.
    (0)

  4. #114
    Player
    Nero-Voidstails's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2023
    Posts
    903
    Character
    Nero Tsukimi
    World
    Zalera
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by aiqa View Post
    There is a huge difference between self healing on the different tank jobs, and even the tank with lowest self healing is viable. So they can normalize healing towards that baseline. And if there is more healing needed after that, buff healers.
    I don't get where your idea of buffing healer come from when self healing is way to good on tanks. unless you speak about giving buffs and some debuff then yes I do agree otherwise nope tanks need a nerf in healing
    (1)

  5. #115
    Player
    Voryn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2023
    Posts
    164
    Character
    Voryn Thelas
    World
    Midgardsormr
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Nerfing tanks will break the content where all their mitigation and healing is actually needed to survive (Ultimates, week 1 Savage, and stuff like M6S adds phase).

    If you don’t want them to be able to solo casual content when the party is dead then the encounter needs to have enough damage that the tanks can’t handle it by themselves for more than a minute. Or have some lighter “bodycheck” mechanics that do extra damage if you don’t have enough people alive to do them.

    M3 Normal is a good example of an encounter that tanks can’t deal with all by themselves. The tankbusters and raidwides do non-trivial amounts of damage, and the towers do even more damage when they’re not all soaked. I’ve had a few runs where if the healers die halfway though it then the party just has to wipe and retry.

    The consequence of requiring your healer to stay alive would mean that you’re basically guaranteed to wipe if your healer dies to a boss that isn’t almost dead. This wouldn’t be that common in 8 player content since that requires both healers to die at the same time, but you’ll probably get walled for a while by certain dungeon bosses if your healer is a first timer and is dying a bunch. The occasional dungeon run where the tanks and dps beat a boss without a healer will now become a dungeon run where you do a boss over and over until the healer learns it.
    (0)

  6. #116
    Player
    Alice_Rivers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2024
    Posts
    547
    Character
    Alice Rivers
    World
    Omega
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    This (normal) tier (M7 and M8 in particular) has been some of the most fun I've had as a healer in this game, actually doing my job, it's been a blast. Similarly extremes have been pretty good even after progging, I want those tank busters in dungeons.
    (1)

  7. #117
    Player
    DivineP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Posts
    271
    Character
    Divine Power
    World
    Phantom
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Voryn View Post
    Nerfing tanks will break the content where all their mitigation and healing is actually needed to survive (Ultimates, week 1 Savage, and stuff like M6S adds phase).

    If you don’t want them to be able to solo casual content when the party is dead then the encounter needs to have enough damage that the tanks can’t handle it by themselves for more than a minute. Or have some lighter “bodycheck” mechanics that do extra damage if you don’t have enough people alive to do them.

    M3 Normal is a good example of an encounter that tanks can’t deal with all by themselves. The tankbusters and raidwides do non-trivial amounts of damage, and the towers do even more damage when they’re not all soaked. I’ve had a few runs where if the healers die halfway though it then the party just has to wipe and retry.

    The consequence of requiring your healer to stay alive would mean that you’re basically guaranteed to wipe if your healer dies to a boss that isn’t almost dead. This wouldn’t be that common in 8 player content since that requires both healers to die at the same time, but you’ll probably get walled for a while by certain dungeon bosses if your healer is a first timer and is dying a bunch. The occasional dungeon run where the tanks and dps beat a boss without a healer will now become a dungeon run where you do a boss over and over until the healer learns it.
    (I mean no offence by this)

    The thing you need to realise is that this is an MMO. We have multiple jobs that can res in combat.

    Now lets look at WoW - you get a few battles resses. In FF14 we get alot of leeway to make mistakes and just get ressed back up.

    This has lead to a divide in the newer content where ppl are bleeding to death (Reccolection) or not doing mechanics properly and breeding DPS (M8 ppl bot stacking or moving causing wipes) personally, I think this is a good thing. It takes the focus off single play (greeding DPS, tanks solving bosses - which to be frank is single play mentality)

    I've done alot of duty's and the amount of ppl I've seen saying sorry after a death / wipe in those is astounding.

    Hot take: WIPES HAPPEN SO PPL CAN LEARN - can't commit to the timer? Don't que with random and get on a DC or grab an FC with ppl on your own level.

    I've done multiple mentor roulettes where the timer runs out and I've had so much fun just talking strategy with new comers.

    This is an MMO not a run through everything and get what I want simulator.

    Again no offence
    (2)

  8. #118
    Player
    VictorSpoils's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2022
    Posts
    926
    Character
    Victor Spoils
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Blue Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Kabooa View Post


    Edit: And here's what it should look like.

    That's what it used to be like in ShB, before the new meta. All that really had to be done was to buff the negligible 2% bonus, considering it's still used specifically for the shield. Then everybody wins......maybe.
    (2)

  9. #119
    Player
    Conchoidal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2022
    Posts
    38
    Character
    Sosipolis Nerolis
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Voryn View Post
    Nerfing tanks will break the content where all their mitigation and healing is actually needed to survive (Ultimates, week 1 Savage, and stuff like M6S adds phase).

    The consequence of requiring your healer to stay alive would mean that you’re basically guaranteed to wipe if your healer dies to a boss that isn’t almost dead. This wouldn’t be that common in 8 player content since that requires both healers to die at the same time, but you’ll probably get walled for a while by certain dungeon bosses if your healer is a first timer and is dying a bunch. The occasional dungeon run where the tanks and dps beat a boss without a healer will now become a dungeon run where you do a boss over and over until the healer learns it.
    Tanks already have several mitigation options to keep their healer or other party members alive (Cover, Intervention, Nascent Flash, Heart of Stone/Corundum, TBN, Oblation) and every DPS has some form of mitigation or heal. If a healer dies at the start of a battle then it doesn't seem fair that they have to spectate for the rest of the fight whilst a tank heals the rest of the party without any issues. Nerfing the amount of self healing they can do also lets healers use their single target GCD heals more often, alleviating glare/broil/malefic/dosis spam.
    (1)

  10. #120
    Player
    Rithy255's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Posts
    1,923
    Character
    Rithris Amaya
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Conchoidal View Post
    Tanks already have several mitigation options to keep their healer or other party members alive (Cover, Intervention, Nascent Flash, Heart of Stone/Corundum, TBN, Oblation) and every DPS has some form of mitigation or heal. If a healer dies at the start of a battle then it doesn't seem fair that they have to spectate for the rest of the fight whilst a tank heals the rest of the party without any issues. Nerfing the amount of self healing they can do also lets healers use their single target GCD heals more often, alleviating glare/broil/malefic/dosis spam.
    From that perspective yeah it's annoying and unfun when tanks are able to protect and keep a party alive, but it's also apart of tanks identity to protect allies, tanks and healers are both support jobs, Tanks jobs shouldn't be "dps with slightly more hp". If I'm playing a "Paladin" I expect to have some form of healing and protection, I don't want just be shield aggro bot.

    Theirs a middle ground approach to making healers more useful in casual content, such as upping the healing while also keeping tank utility/protection/healing still impactful and useful. Maybe instead of just it being the tanks or healers job to mitigate, shield, protect and heal it should be a shared responsibility between the tank and healer which is how I view things. (Obviously you can put a more of a focus on healing on healers while tanks have a more mitigative focus, doesn't mean abilities can't also cross between both). You can certainly down survivability on tanks and I think that should be done, mostly with self mitigation values and warriors self healing being too much in casual content.

    Lasty the reason why healers don't GCD heal has not much to do with tanks and more the fact their own kits are designed around having full healing uptime with the sheer amount of ogcd single/aoe heal spells they have, sure tanks do play apart but even if we removed all tank self/target healing, Healers would still never need to gcd heal, which doesn't really change glare spam. If you want healers to actually use GCD's you need to take away all ogcd healing, or actually up healing requirements to a point where gcd's become important.
    (1)
    Last edited by Rithy255; 05-01-2025 at 02:55 AM.

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