Ninja's aoe (and maybe mch) being pitifully weak for M6S

[Carighan]

We'd then have more reasons to lock out certain jobs for it if that's the type of balance you want.

Yeah. Sure. Swapping jobs is so trivial in this game, the high-end content (EX/Savage/Unreal/etc) really ought to be balanced for specific setups. Maybe even hard-require them.

[Inanegrain]

Yeah. Sure. Swapping jobs is so trivial in this game, the high-end content (EX/Savage/Unreal/etc) really ought to be balanced for specific setups. Maybe even hard-require them.

I don’t really see how anyone can view this as anything different to the PCT situation. If you supported nerfing PCT because of its FRU performance BECAUSE it was also above average or really good in everything else then you should support nerfing VPR for exactly the same reason

I personally prefer classes have actual niches which is why I didn’t support them nerfing VPR but it’s a bit hard to not feel vindictive when they not only nerfed PCT but basically ruined the class in one shot. Is this gonna be in VPR’s future or is it fine because it’s a melee

A difference I'd say would be picto was strong due to the fact that they benefit from downtime.

Vpr suffered as a gauge job not being able to benefit from downtime, only to even out once we arrived at phases where VPR can get 90 gauge into the next phase for FRU and eventually being dominating in P5 where it actually matters.

Ninja on the other hand, just has a aoe kit that has been an afterthought since EW, and the only reason we didn't care is due to the lack of adds.
All they got were unintended nerfs to doton due to unintended usage causing it to be shorter from 21 to 18 which didn't matter much besides affect TEA and eventually, the removal of prepull doton in EW.

When DT was released, I'm interested on how they turned shoha to always be a cleave, then when it came it, turns out, ninja basically got nothing special besides tenri jindo, that's all they have. Hollow nozuchi is nearly useless in this fight.

I'd call this a balance issue not because vpr is overly strong, I'm calling it out for was it even considered that ninja's aoe hasn't been updated at all aside from being unintentionally nerfed?

Our filler is nearly useless in aoe, it does not need to be this useless and I've already described a number of details just from my own perspective. This is neglect by an afterthought for ninja's aoe, not because vpr is strong.

Do I need to go on an elaborate detail on what MNK, DRG, SAM have as well for natural cleaves they have? I don't play those jobs and yet I'm able to recognize why they're still very much capable.

[Carighan]

I'd call this a balance issue not because vpr is overly strong, I'm calling it out for was it even considered that ninja's aoe hasn't been updated at all aside from being unintentionally nerfed?

Our filler is nearly useless in aoe, it does not need to be this useless and I've already described a number of details just from my own perspective. This is neglect by an afterthought for ninja's aoe, not because vpr is strong.

I'm not sure I follow. Ninja is undertuned in AoE maybe, but "not updated"? With three of the new things in DT affecting AoE damage? With the filler being, well, the usual? A 1->2 step combo that gives a resource you spend on a 3. That's more or less the standard?

The numbers might need tweaking, but mechanically there's actually a fair bit to do on a Ninja for AoE, more so because unlike some other jobs (Reaper...) the AoE is not just a carbon copy of the single target stuff but in AoE and with one step removed from the filler.

[Inanegrain]

I'm not sure I follow. Ninja is undertuned in AoE maybe, but "not updated"? With three of the new things in DT affecting AoE damage? With the filler being, well, the usual? A 1->2 step combo that gives a resource you spend on a 3. That's more or less the standard?

The numbers might need tweaking, but mechanically there's actually a fair bit to do on a Ninja for AoE, more so because unlike some other jobs (Reaper...) the AoE is not just a carbon copy of the single target stuff but in AoE and with one step removed from the filler.

the 1-2 combo you're talking about is so pathetic in this case, we're better off building the resource you mention doing single target for the hellfrog which is a tiny gain on 3 targets. It has no fall off, but it is incredibly weak as it is almost untouched in a significant way, even with mug buffing it, we're better off using enhanced bhava/messho on a priority target for how weak it is despite it's lack of falloff on week 1.

"fair bit to do on ninja for aoe", please refer to what i've mentioned for how weak katon is despite it's lack of falloff, goka included, jackal has mentioned that the least they could do is to make a katon equivalent of raiju. We do not use katon as much as you think, in fact, we only use it once as a possibility under TCJ.
There is a fuma raiton huton, but that's not going to change much either when we still have priority targets.

You'd think we'd throw out katons on adds phase right? but no, because we have priority targets to kill, we're actually SINGLE TARGETTING PRIORITY TARGETS TO DEATH FOR HOW WEAK THE AOE IS. What we can AOE when we could are, PK, Tenri. That's all we have, if all of the priority targets are dead, we could aoe, but turns out by the time we reach that point there are only 2 mus left, so... single target.

Kassatsu, TA are things that we NEED to save to kill the jabba in wave 3/4, it is POSSIBLE to have a group capable of waiting a bit longer for the jabba to come into the mu pack and then use said tools, however, after TA and a Goka + goka, we have nothing else, that's all we have at that moment, maybe 1 more mudra and if it isn't dead, that's a dead healer and we've now concluded the nin needs to use it asap.

Reaper? At the very least, they get gauge off from dead enemies, communio, enshroud which is reawakening but without every gcd coming in with a ogcd. I do not know much about the situation of RPR, but I can tell you that if the nin melee was a MCH, they'd do more work than a ninja.
They are on a 2.5 gcd, their fillers hit hard enough, they have cleaves that build up quickly, they do lose against DRG who has a natural cleave that can actually hit 2 mantas for how long it is, but it takes a bit of work to hit it, that's why they're very much capable of dealing with this, in fact, they build this gauge so much quicker in aoe as well but they would still want to single target priority targets to death and are very much capable.

If I have to swap off a job to gain significant leeway, such as a known WAR main swapping to GNB only to clear p8s with 2 dds and a death or more on week 1, there is something very wrong especially if it's asking for perfect performance at the moment.

Reminder, we're better off using raiton on 2 targets and single targetting in this situation, it is a gain to katon on 3, but if a priority target is involved, single target.

[NightHour]

(EX/Savage/Unreal/etc) really ought to be balanced for specific setups. Maybe even hard-require them.

No.

Any job should be able to clear all kinds of content, including the high end.

[Carighan]

Any job should be able to clear all kinds of content, including the high end.

So long as you are okay with this by-definition also requiring all jobs to functionally be the same and have equivalent rotations, sure.

Plus I mean you could still do an unsync party of course and circumvent it, you just would not get full rewards.