Ninja's aoe (and maybe mch) being pitifully weak for M6S

[Inanegrain]

Yeah. Sure. Swapping jobs is so trivial in this game, the high-end content (EX/Savage/Unreal/etc) really ought to be balanced for specific setups. Maybe even hard-require them.

I don’t really see how anyone can view this as anything different to the PCT situation. If you supported nerfing PCT because of its FRU performance BECAUSE it was also above average or really good in everything else then you should support nerfing VPR for exactly the same reason

I personally prefer classes have actual niches which is why I didn’t support them nerfing VPR but it’s a bit hard to not feel vindictive when they not only nerfed PCT but basically ruined the class in one shot. Is this gonna be in VPR’s future or is it fine because it’s a melee

A difference I'd say would be picto was strong due to the fact that they benefit from downtime.

Vpr suffered as a gauge job not being able to benefit from downtime, only to even out once we arrived at phases where VPR can get 90 gauge into the next phase for FRU and eventually being dominating in P5 where it actually matters.

Ninja on the other hand, just has a aoe kit that has been an afterthought since EW, and the only reason we didn't care is due to the lack of adds.
All they got were unintended nerfs to doton due to unintended usage causing it to be shorter from 21 to 18 which didn't matter much besides affect TEA and eventually, the removal of prepull doton in EW.

When DT was released, I'm interested on how they turned shoha to always be a cleave, then when it came it, turns out, ninja basically got nothing special besides tenri jindo, that's all they have. Hollow nozuchi is nearly useless in this fight.

I'd call this a balance issue not because vpr is overly strong, I'm calling it out for was it even considered that ninja's aoe hasn't been updated at all aside from being unintentionally nerfed?

Our filler is nearly useless in aoe, it does not need to be this useless and I've already described a number of details just from my own perspective. This is neglect by an afterthought for ninja's aoe, not because vpr is strong.

Do I need to go on an elaborate detail on what MNK, DRG, SAM have as well for natural cleaves they have? I don't play those jobs and yet I'm able to recognize why they're still very much capable.

[Inanegrain]

I'm gonna drop a lil reminder on how the start of EW was for the dps jobs, it isn't just because mnk and rpr were overtuned, it's also how much they underestimated the kit of the jobs most weakest in this period, to the point sam is weaker than rpr/mnk and ninja just being a worse mnk on a higher gcd sks, and other issues extensive issues that lingered in EW till P8S happened.

While it eventually got fix, we still have a period of content that was designed with 6.0 in mind, such as zodiark, where coincidentally there is going to be a bound specifically and neatly onto a 1m, nothing wrong nothing strange, mechanics tend to happen at 1 minute cause, why not? Can't make it too ea- oh wait, wasn't raiju a forced gapcloser combo that you couldn't break out of besides ranged gcds and is effectively unusable when bound?
It got fixed eventually, it is still a pretty questionable oversight to have done when you've literally made a fight with a new kit in mind.

The only thing that isn't going to fix a balance is a player's individual skill issue, at some point, you should be able to look at this and recognize, this is completely forgetting about an aspect of a job's kit to the point it leads to this.

Don't wanna touch ninja in any form? Even when TCJ has a forced microdrift due to it still being a 120 AND meisui as well for some unknown reason that is already tied to TCJ?

Fine, move wave 2 mus into wave 1, making them spawn together instead of a staggered spawn.
That's it, a simple change like that can already make ninja find better value with their already limited resources, this is enough to ease off a lot of issues nin would have even in wave 3/4 because the damage can actually receive the intended value without severely limiting their ability in wave 3/4.
This won't fix ninja's aoe issues, but it'll alleviate an issue ninja has.

We've even recognized how much weaker 2m buffs would be for criterion dungeons due to a lack of players to receive buffs and supposedly, jobs were buffed accordingly for the instance.

Remember, this is a 2nd floor savage boss, the only difference between all the previous add phase we've had so far is that each of these adds has an enrage that will not benefit from slowly killing them, remember this important detail from the pass add phases we've had in the past, we benefited more from slowly killing them IF there is an adds phase.

Balancing issues such as a neglect like this should not be to the point it is a "just don't pick ninja" issue, it can be weaker, but not to the point where I can do everything in different ways, only to actually run out of buttons to press, I am literally out of buttons to press to kill a priority target.

Bugs on the other hand, supposedly on DRK specifically, are an issue that should be hotfixed for obvious reasons, this issue being esteem doing nothing after using a teleporter in m8s, a 2minute that does a lot of damage turned incapable or at a very limited function is something else because it is unintended. It should be rare for how it is currently week 3 and if this has only been recently found out to be true or false.

I am having a hard time believing that the supposed buffs nin received, or any at all, is solely due to m6s. I am quite certain, without those falloff buffs, the same ninjas that can clear this fight in particular on week 1, will still be able to do so because they are coordinated to the point I would expect them to have very sufficient proficiency in the jobs each player has picked.

Meanwhile on PF with proficient players, where I may have hindered the prog of 3-4 days of other people just because of adds and discounting the pulls where it is the tanks fault for not knowing how to pull adds, was easily solved in having me swap to vpr next pull. Again, I'm hammering this cause I've already recognized since EW ninja's aoe has been weak and people tolerated it because there are no such strict situation that demands good aoe damage to this degree by M6s, criterion dungeons are obvious, they're fine because they don't have such a strict enrage and it actually allows ninja to use DOTON properly, and even then, it is still weak with the only reason left solely for how it is not this strict and NIN still has the ability to reset their mudras with hide, they can even have 2 raijus ready and 2 mudras ready for the next pull in EW and it still applies today.

[Carighan]

I'd call this a balance issue not because vpr is overly strong, I'm calling it out for was it even considered that ninja's aoe hasn't been updated at all aside from being unintentionally nerfed?

Our filler is nearly useless in aoe, it does not need to be this useless and I've already described a number of details just from my own perspective. This is neglect by an afterthought for ninja's aoe, not because vpr is strong.

I'm not sure I follow. Ninja is undertuned in AoE maybe, but "not updated"? With three of the new things in DT affecting AoE damage? With the filler being, well, the usual? A 1->2 step combo that gives a resource you spend on a 3. That's more or less the standard?

The numbers might need tweaking, but mechanically there's actually a fair bit to do on a Ninja for AoE, more so because unlike some other jobs (Reaper...) the AoE is not just a carbon copy of the single target stuff but in AoE and with one step removed from the filler.

[Inanegrain]

I'm not sure I follow. Ninja is undertuned in AoE maybe, but "not updated"? With three of the new things in DT affecting AoE damage? With the filler being, well, the usual? A 1->2 step combo that gives a resource you spend on a 3. That's more or less the standard?

The numbers might need tweaking, but mechanically there's actually a fair bit to do on a Ninja for AoE, more so because unlike some other jobs (Reaper...) the AoE is not just a carbon copy of the single target stuff but in AoE and with one step removed from the filler.

the 1-2 combo you're talking about is so pathetic in this case, we're better off building the resource you mention doing single target for the hellfrog which is a tiny gain on 3 targets. It has no fall off, but it is incredibly weak as it is almost untouched in a significant way, even with mug buffing it, we're better off using enhanced bhava/messho on a priority target for how weak it is despite it's lack of falloff on week 1.

"fair bit to do on ninja for aoe", please refer to what i've mentioned for how weak katon is despite it's lack of falloff, goka included, jackal has mentioned that the least they could do is to make a katon equivalent of raiju. We do not use katon as much as you think, in fact, we only use it once as a possibility under TCJ.
There is a fuma raiton huton, but that's not going to change much either when we still have priority targets.

You'd think we'd throw out katons on adds phase right? but no, because we have priority targets to kill, we're actually SINGLE TARGETTING PRIORITY TARGETS TO DEATH FOR HOW WEAK THE AOE IS. What we can AOE when we could are, PK, Tenri. That's all we have, if all of the priority targets are dead, we could aoe, but turns out by the time we reach that point there are only 2 mus left, so... single target.

Kassatsu, TA are things that we NEED to save to kill the jabba in wave 3/4, it is POSSIBLE to have a group capable of waiting a bit longer for the jabba to come into the mu pack and then use said tools, however, after TA and a Goka + goka, we have nothing else, that's all we have at that moment, maybe 1 more mudra and if it isn't dead, that's a dead healer and we've now concluded the nin needs to use it asap.

Reaper? At the very least, they get gauge off from dead enemies, communio, enshroud which is reawakening but without every gcd coming in with a ogcd. I do not know much about the situation of RPR, but I can tell you that if the nin melee was a MCH, they'd do more work than a ninja.
They are on a 2.5 gcd, their fillers hit hard enough, they have cleaves that build up quickly, they do lose against DRG who has a natural cleave that can actually hit 2 mantas for how long it is, but it takes a bit of work to hit it, that's why they're very much capable of dealing with this, in fact, they build this gauge so much quicker in aoe as well but they would still want to single target priority targets to death and are very much capable.

If I have to swap off a job to gain significant leeway, such as a known WAR main swapping to GNB only to clear p8s with 2 dds and a death or more on week 1, there is something very wrong especially if it's asking for perfect performance at the moment.

Reminder, we're better off using raiton on 2 targets and single targetting in this situation, it is a gain to katon on 3, but if a priority target is involved, single target.

[Carighan]

Ah so you're on about the tuning, not the lack of changes or updates. Sorry, misunderstood you and thought you meant what you wrote.

[Inanegrain]

Ah so you're on about the tuning, not the lack of changes or updates. Sorry, misunderstood you and thought you meant what you wrote.

I'm fine with ninja being the same, however, I had genuine hope when I saw ninja's aoe got nerfed from 130 to 120 and thought, "maybe ninja is really good?", that is so very much not the case after what i've wasted 3-4 days on week 1 for.

why did we even get this nerf, this should've been buffed, it's near useless even in building gauge.

[Arohk]

- Katon doesn't have a follow-up.

instead of having two different raiton follow ups, they should merge both Raijus and make a new one for Katon.

[Miohazuki]

I understand that it is possible to clear this fight as a ninja on party finder.

However, I'd think some changes are needed for ninja's aoe capabilities that I've found lacking in sustained aoe fights.

Ninja, for dungeons at least, is strong just for their burst and their ability to recharge mudras immediately between packs, however, if it takes a while to pacify a pack, it struggles as not only are the normal aoe combos incredibly weak, their ninki buildup for a frog is barely a gain over bhavacakra for 3 targets, it is still a gain, but it is small.

We have no fall off damage on our mudras, but that comes at a cost of a mudra, which we'd have to choose to do damage immediately or prepare for another TA.

In m6s, I find myself needing to use raiton more than the supposed aoes needed due to how weak and limited our aoe is when there is a target that MUST be dealt with asap to the point single targetting and only giving out a frog is preferred due to how fast we must eliminate these targets.

Mug being a 120 cd makes it hard to get value out of when there are no targets to target for it that makes it worth doing so during the fight. This usually leads to a delay of it and it is to reallocate resources just for a certain comp, to deal with an issue before it affects the 4th wave.

We have bunshin, and honestly, just for this fight, it feels like this should be 60 seconds due to how much we're lacking and doton takes a while for the full value of it to be taken and it isn't much either with hollow nozuchi.

Machinist also suffers a similar issue as ninja, they've got decent single target options for the cat at the very least, and 2 chain saws they can assemble.

But their auto crossbow, an aoe tool, is bad because it can't even recharge the ogcds it has and flamethrower's a joke to use, it builds no gauge at all and it is effectively a worse auto attack on a server tick.

Obviously, we can't pad out the time before death occurs by the jabbawock as fights are scripted and doton slow while nice if it worked, would prolong certain events as the fight will still go on and possibly cause issues while pulling the pack around.

At the very least, their aoe combo should've been buffed or generate a lot more ninki than it should without bunshin, even the frog could use a buff to finally be a gain on 2 targets, we don't have an aoe version of raiju, and tenri is at least a tool we can use to allocate damage somewhere else in a 30 second window.

Meanwhile, with a DD, VPR easily resolves the adds for obvious reasons, they even get 3 katons for free that comes with ogcds despite the damage falloff.

i had too many text

All I see here is skill issue of yours

[Inanegrain]

All I see here is skill issue of yours

I've described some of the methods ninja can do to deal with this, it will lead to a lack of aoe damage in the end where you're relying on others.

Come back after doing a proper investigation of the fight.

In fact, go ahead and take a look at what changes/additions did ninja receive to AOE in general. I'll give you an obvious one, Tenri jindo.

[mallleable]

Reducing the cooldown of Bunshin to 55 or 60 seconds would actually be pretty nice buff for NIN.