Ninja's aoe (and maybe mch) being pitifully weak for M6S

[Inanegrain]

Double viper...

It turns a phase where mistakes are almost not allowed, into something that feels like what would happen if we got gear on week1. That's pretty much all I have to say about what this phase did to what I've noticed in PF. As long as it isn't 2 dead vprs.

As long as we follow the kill priority and cleaves are being made to happen, imagine everything I described about vpr, but it happened faster, we do not have lb 2, we can even melee lb1 which is not optimal just to avoid capping gauge, still, caster/ranged lb1 is better but mostly irrelevant in this case.

There's no need to fear of... pepega things, if it feels like the puddle player made a mistake and placed a puddle on a spot way too early, just move, as long as you're not covering the entire route of the jabba, it will die in just 1 kick, infact, you dont even need to kick the jabba for it to die, both of them.
The two yans being alive longer is an option, but with double vpr, you should feel safe knowing that you can focus on healing the yan tank if you aren't targeted by the jabba, just dont go afk on dps buttons.

Cleaves are still important, but not as strict from what I've observed with packs not as tight as I wanted.

Back to just a typical 1 vpr setting, imagine the difference if this viper is geared.

Everything else about nin can in fact, be solved with gear, but this difference is immense for PF at least.

[Carighan]

Well that's good. Some jobs should be better at things, others at other things.

Of course the problem here is that Viper has no real downside to make up for it's superior AoE potential. Which is a good unique strength to have tbh, and it's fine that Ninja has unique weaker AoE, too. They just each need an offset in the other direction.

[Valence]

It's not that VPR is better at AoE, it's that VPR is specifically better in this encounter's add phase. Perhaps VPR has less drawbacks and can face a lot more AoE situations without any loss though, idk. Probably since they have all those big ranged AoE nukes.
But the point still is that you can design add phases in so many different ways that maybe in another fight you'll get different jobs crying out blood because they're suddenly into raid plan positions forcing them to single target half the time. Maybe in another fight you'll get a horde of adds that die very fast, favoring upfront loaded AoE damage jobs like SMN and PCT. It's just that the devs seem out of their depth when it comes to encounters, at least as much as the community, because everyone has a goldfish memory and forgot (or never really tried) to make add phases with meaning.

But, I still give them points for trying in M6S.

[Carighan]

Yeah I like that M6S isn't balanced. We need more wacky encounters, not the usual fare. I like the dancing interuptions in M5S ruining some people's rotations. I like the M6S focus on incidental AoE with a focus target (though in the game that FFXIV is, there's frankly little reason for any job having dedicated AoE buttons instead of it all being incidental, but that's a wholly different design issue). We need more!

[Inanegrain]

Yeah I like that M6S isn't balanced. We need more wacky encounters, not the usual fare. I like the dancing interuptions in M5S ruining some people's rotations. I like the M6S focus on incidental AoE with a focus target (though in the game that FFXIV is, there's frankly little reason for any job having dedicated AoE buttons instead of it all being incidental, but that's a wholly different design issue). We need more!

We'd then have more reasons to lock out certain jobs for it if that's the type of balance you want.

Solely, this is the lack of thought put into ninja's aoe capabilities outside of burst. Mch as well, but at least they have more resources to pool with single targets and cleaves.

You can remove all the falloff damage ninja has and it will still struggle as you pool resources around that makes sense.

EDIT: Maybe turn katon into a 600p with no falloff, turn goka into 900p as hyosho is 1300p, make hellfrog medium be a gain on 2 instead of 3 targets, idk, make huton speed up your gcds even further, kazematoi stacks for aoe, even all of this will depend on whether nin has anything left for wave3/4

[Carighan]

We'd then have more reasons to lock out certain jobs for it if that's the type of balance you want.

Yeah. Sure. Swapping jobs is so trivial in this game, the high-end content (EX/Savage/Unreal/etc) really ought to be balanced for specific setups. Maybe even hard-require them.

[KageTokage]

If better gear wasn't dripfed to us due to the weekly tomestone/loot restrictions, then sure.

[Supersnow845]

I don’t really see how anyone can view this as anything different to the PCT situation. If you supported nerfing PCT because of its FRU performance BECAUSE it was also above average or really good in everything else then you should support nerfing VPR for exactly the same reason

I personally prefer classes have actual niches which is why I didn’t support them nerfing VPR but it’s a bit hard to not feel vindictive when they not only nerfed PCT but basically ruined the class in one shot. Is this gonna be in VPR’s future or is it fine because it’s a melee

[Aco505]

I don’t really see how anyone can view this as anything different to the PCT situation. If you supported nerfing PCT because of its FRU performance BECAUSE it was also above average or really good in everything else then you should support nerfing VPR for exactly the same reason

I personally prefer classes have actual niches which is why I didn’t support them nerfing VPR but it’s a bit hard to not feel vindictive when they not only nerfed PCT but basically ruined the class in one shot. Is this gonna be in VPR’s future or is it fine because it’s a melee

I think my reply in the other thread made it clear why the VPR and PCT situations cannot be compared. If you truly feel they're the exact same thing, then either we must be playing different games or there's a bias going on. I thought you were "tired" of saying that you agreed PCT needed a nerf?

The developers not doing proper balancing is an entirely different issue. They're supposed to know that the weapon muse cannot be balanced in the same way that the living muses are due to the former being GCDs.

[Rithy255]

We'd then have more reasons to lock out certain jobs for it if that's the type of balance you want.

Swapping jobs means nothing because job design has no actual importance anymore. At least with older balance you felt like your job was cool and different.

The only difference is now you get a different weapon and animation when you swap out jobs