Ninja's aoe (and maybe mch) being pitifully weak for M6S

[Carighan]

Fine, move wave 2 mus into wave 1, making them spawn together instead of a staggered spawn.

Interesting tactics difference, Light usually doesn't attack Mus before wave 2 has already spawned and they're on top of a ray (all 4 of them at that point).

[Inanegrain]

Interesting tactics difference, Light usually doesn't attack Mus before wave 2 has already spawned and they're on top of a ray (all 4 of them at that point).

that was just a theory to make ninja have more value out of mug due to the delayed spawn as we don't touch the mus to begin with in wave 1.

even if it's just a mug and no one's hitting them, it is still value compared to using it on a nearly dead yan/cat as we wait for wave 2's mantas

[Inanegrain]

Reducing the cooldown of Bunshin to 55 or 60 seconds would actually be pretty nice buff for NIN.

This would be good to have but I'd think SE say that's too strong or make the stacks a lot weaker, it will however improve ninja's capabilities in dungeons as well as there would be no loss for accidental overkill.

[EthanXdeath]

I honestly think that ninja is undertuned for this tier. Feels like it needs potency buffs across the board, but our AoE is in a bad spot for m6s. Fortunately I can swap to viper without issue though it does feel bad doing so. I love ninja but tbh I think the devs don't.

[Carighan]

I honestly think that ninja is undertuned for this tier. Feels like it needs potency buffs across the board, but our AoE is in a bad spot for m6s. Fortunately I can swap to viper without issue though it does feel bad doing so. I love ninja but tbh I think the devs don't.

I feel it might be a bit of a Picto issue: Everyone is underpowered compared to Viper in this particular case, just to different degrees. The correct solution is to first remove Viper's automatic AoE from Awaken (split it into 2x4 buttons, one set single target, one set AoE), then check again afterwards to see how the actual balance settles down.

[Inanegrain]

I feel it might be a bit of a Picto issue: Everyone is underpowered compared to Viper in this particular case, just to different degrees. The correct solution is to first remove Viper's automatic AoE from Awaken (split it into 2x4 buttons, one set single target, one set AoE), then check again afterwards to see how the actual balance settles down.

I assure you, it is only ninja that is solely incredibly underpowered compared to the rest of the melees just for this specific scenario.

Even a free frog after finishing the aoe combo might be worth something despite the meager potency hellfrog has, or allow it to give a free bhava as well as some other ninjas have suggested not on the forums.

I'm certain I've given an explanation on the other melees on how they can deal with this.

Ninja literally has no buttons left to press depending on hold or no hold, even on no hold, it'll be cutting it close to the arena being flooded as mug comes up somewhere during 2nd jabba being near death or required to be dead as I've experimented with mnk being much smoother.

The picto issue is solely due to how much downtime benefitted picto and they've made the fight nearly perfect for the situation and is an outlier for why picto's strong, now, they're better off spamming their 123 paints while things like hammer are solely reserved for movement.

All the melees have tools for this scenario except NIN, I am very stern on the fact that you should not think VPR is OP to the point of being broken, it is literally modernized with issues of the other melee jobs issues, we have rpr still being split when it can shed that limit off and it's up to SE to continue these changes onto other jobs, shoha's aoe got combined into shoha for a reason.

Do not do something backwards such as splitting the automatic aoe when it should be a norm for a job, in the reverse, m6s adds do not want nin's sustained aoe at all to the point hellfrog is not viable as key targets are required to die, a point I'm very certain I've hammered into the number of issues ninja has. Even VPR would want to ST certain adds with vicewinder instead of aoe as they should similarly to sam.

Go forward instead of thinking to nerf a job when you can clearly see that there are aspects of a job that outright are dated. The fact that NIN's aoe filler got nerfed continues to baffle me for what they've tested.

Ninja is still perfectly fine for m5, 7 and 8 because their kit isn't so horribly dated in ST because it's already near perfect that didn't need many changes as ST fights were nearly all they did and any ADD phase fights did not have a strict enrage priority and all came in a natural enough way. The other add phase scenario we've had were dungeons, and we were somewhat fine with it due to the fact we can reset mudras after each pull and not worry about needing to prep mudras as much, although mug wasn't as great as the other melees as it lacks the aoe component back then, TA as well. That's 2 flaws fixed in DT, there can be more as these 2 fixes just so happen to be really bad for M6S wants for either no hold or hold due to the fact we can't target the targets that are important to kill immediately.

[Aelin_Ashryver]

Well buffs come in, hurrah

[Inanegrain]

Unfortunately, while it is something, it made me facepalm as we still have no buttons to press past pk and tenri, we already know where these two are going and that isn't changing since week1.

Hollow and kunai are effectively w/e since one not going to make full use of killing a priority target and the other's preferably used on cd to kill a jabba in wave 3/4, at least it's buffed in a hold group. I still don't think doton should be used, we're still not going to katon in the aoe situation unless manta's health is clearly ahead in dying, there could be a katon on 3/4 wave jabba if it's clearly dying as well, but it's more likely going to be a raiton into raiju to a manta if the jabba still isn't dead.

A change to frog would've been better if they aren't willing to update the rest of nin's aoe kit. Buffing aoe filler's ninki gauge/free hellfrog after aoe filler/reduce frog ninki gauge usage from 50 to 20-15, the third option would be most suited for m6s needs as an example.