Trying to play MCH with PUG's is pure agony.

[Valence]

The 1% buff is still very much required. No group goes without a p. range in hard content.

This doesn't change the fact that p. range should be brought for more than just that. For starters, the gap should not be more than 5%, if we follow SE's current philosophy on job balance.

As long as it is even just 5%, the only reason to bring them will be the party bonus. Job balanced saw the gap reduced down to 5% ish both in the second half of ShB and EW, and it was no different. Those jobs do not bring a raise, therefore doing less damage means that the only reason they are included in parties is for the party bonus, nothing more.

Melees would cry their eyes out if positions were reversed and rphys players told them that 5% is okay.

You would think that, but you are wrong! Double caster comps not only are clearing, but are doing so easier than any comp with a prange!

An "Average" group is dealing around 170,000 - 180,000DPS (using M5 as a comparison since it has the most data). 1% of that group DPS is 1,800dps.

Replacing any prange (tops out at 27,000 rdps at 50th percentile) with any Black Mage or Melee (low end of 29,000 rdps, top end of 30,000rdps) gives your group a gain of 2,000-3,000 damage. Even accounting for the 1% lower damage on the new damage output source (200-300 dps loss) you still don't close the gap at all.

The actual numbers I've been running since dawntrail started are a bit more complicated considering group composition, and a small boost in raw HP is also useful for prog purposes... however generally adding a BLM or any melee in the place of your ranged is a net gain. PCT was also a net gain until this patch. RDM and SMN are a minor group DPS loss, in exchange for a battle rez.

If you have a RDM or SMN in your party, yeeting your ranged player and recruiting a black mage or Pictomancer is a strict, substantial gain for your group unless your group is a barse group.

This is not literally +1% damage.
This is +1% in main stats (STR/DEX/VIT/INT/MND).

I do not remember the exact numbers and they quite frankly keep changing due to many variables, but a job used to be in threat of losing the party bonus protection past 10-15% damage gap iirc (don't quote me on the eyeballed number, could be remembering wrong), which always comes pretty close at expansion releases within the rphys department. It is also possible that double PCT comps broke that barrier, that I haven't looked into.

[YukioKobayashi]

SMN and PCT bring battle rezzes, and they should really be doing more damage too.

Battle Rezzes are quite valuable, compared to anything a MCH brings.

What makes you think that a battleraise is more valueable than dismantle when you are already going for the clear? Dismantle always has value while a battleraise doesnt. The moment both healers die its pretty much over anyway. I dont play casters that much but im pretty sure that the priority when it comes to who has to raise always falls on the healer. A RDM most of the times cant raise without breaking his long ass combo since the 2Min burst lines up with mechanics where ppl tempt to die a lot. A SMN doesnt have swift for like 70% of the time if they play optimally to snapshot slipstream. It hurts your party more to bring a RDM/SMN than a MCH would when it comes to the overall party DPS to meet the dpschecks.

That being said since you took m5s 50% as an example on the quote after this. MCH actually seems quite solid surpassing DNC BRD and SMN in rDPS and DNC,BRD;SMN,RDM,PCT in aDPS. rDPS isnt everything, aDPS matters aswell. DRK as an example is most often the lowest rDPS tank but still considered the best tank when it comes to overall partyDPS and Killtime because of his synergy with raidbuffs. MCH in m5s for example could technically start of with a Drill -1-2-3 to line up all high hitting GCD's and Wildfire with Raidbuffs for even more aDPS since you wont lose a usage of Airanchor, Chainsaw, Wildfire, Queen ect with current killtimes.

[Hanayumi]

Its a shame too, Mch has prolly my favorite single target of any Job currently... Unfortunately even if they finally decided on some potency improvements, likely wont see them till 7.3.

[Valence]

What makes you think that a battleraise is more valueable than dismantle when you are already going for the clear? Dismantle always has value while a battleraise doesnt. The moment both healers die its pretty much over anyway. I dont play casters that much but im pretty sure that the priority when it comes to who has to raise always falls on the healer. A RDM most of the times cant raise without breaking his long ass combo since the 2Min burst lines up with mechanics where ppl tempt to die a lot. A SMN doesnt have swift for like 70% of the time if they play optimally to snapshot slipstream. It hurts your party more to bring a RDM/SMN than a MCH would when it comes to the overall party DPS to meet the dpschecks.

That being said since you took m5s 50% as an example on the quote after this. MCH actually seems quite solid surpassing DNC BRD and SMN in rDPS and DNC,BRD;SMN,RDM,PCT in aDPS. rDPS isnt everything, aDPS matters aswell. DRK as an example is most often the lowest rDPS tank but still considered the best tank when it comes to overall partyDPS and Killtime because of his synergy with raidbuffs. MCH in m5s for example could technically start of with a Drill -1-2-3 to line up all high hitting GCD's and Wildfire with Raidbuffs for even more aDPS since you wont lose a usage of Airanchor, Chainsaw, Wildfire, Queen ect with current killtimes.

It's an old debate without a clear cut answer.
Raises are great for progression, but tend to become less appreciated once a group is through, although it's still a safeguard when both healers die outside of a bodycheck mechanic.
Dismantle is great on paper, but in a sea of mitigators, your 10% has a tendency to turn into a 5-7% once stacked. Which is still appreciable, but it's not exactly something to fall over either. It used to have a lot more value back in the days when a lot of mitigators (notably tanks) actually targeted STR/DEX/INT/MND instead of flat % numbers, and there was overall less of them floating all over.

[YukioKobayashi]

It's an old debate without a clear cut answer.
Raises are great for progression, but tend to become less appreciated once a group is through, although it's still a safeguard when both healers die outside of a bodycheck mechanic.
Dismantle is great on paper, but in a sea of mitigators, your 10% has a tendency to turn into a 5-7% once stacked. Which is still appreciable, but it's not exactly something to fall over either. It used to have a lot more value back in the days when a lot of mitigators (notably tanks) actually targeted STR/DEX/INT/MND instead of flat % numbers, and there was overall less of them floating all over.

This is true, but i also think it depends on how you handle mit as a group. Thankfully the diminishing returns only apply to mit on the boss like Rep,Addle,Feint and not to Soil,HoL ect.
It really boggles my mind that people say it has no value in a tier where ppl die to the "Ready or Not" Raidwide in m6s more than the squirrel enrage.

[Aco505]

You would think that, but you are wrong! Double caster comps not only are clearing, but are doing so easier than any comp with a prange!

An "Average" group is dealing around 170,000 - 180,000DPS (using M5 as a comparison since it has the most data). 1% of that group DPS is 1,800dps.

Replacing any prange (tops out at 27,000 rdps at 50th percentile) with any Black Mage or Melee (low end of 29,000 rdps, top end of 30,000rdps) gives your group a gain of 2,000-3,000 damage. Even accounting for the 1% lower damage on the new damage output source (200-300 dps loss) you still don't close the gap at all.

The actual numbers I've been running since dawntrail started are a bit more complicated considering group composition, and a small boost in raw HP is also useful for prog purposes... however generally adding a BLM or any melee in the place of your ranged is a net gain. PCT was also a net gain until this patch. RDM and SMN are a minor group DPS loss, in exchange for a battle rez.

If you have a RDM or SMN in your party, yeeting your ranged player and recruiting a black mage or Pictomancer is a strict, substantial gain for your group unless your group is a barse group.

How many clears of M6S, M7S and M8S in week 1 had no physical range? In week 2? M5S is not the best example for this since the first fight tends to have lenient DPS and mitigation checks.

In the previous tier, BRD was quite close to melee, for instance, so avoiding the bonus was quite detrimental.

FRU has been cleared with four PCT, no healers or no tanks, yet it doesn't mean that it is optimal to do so.

[ONLYSTEEL]

This is not literally +1% damage.
This is +1% in main stats (STR/DEX/VIT/INT/MND).

Since the damage formula is basically multiplication that is still almost +1% damage. IIRC it's 0.9%.

Double PCT also isn't optimal because of LB. The biggest reason to bring a phys ranged is that their raid buffs make everyone's raid buffs also better. MCH doesn't have raid buffs so it gets left out.

That's why almost all top speedruns do bring a BRD or DNC.

The thing is it probably isn't true for PF or midcore groups who don't coordinate much of anything. You only get maximum mileage out of BRD and especially DNC if the team actually coordinates buffs and knows what they're doing. Sure, buff coordination is now basically braindead but you still see casual players not pressing it on cooldown....

I'm going off of EW knowledge but I doubt this stale game has changed anything.

[YukioKobayashi]

Not only MCH is suffering, BRD apparently aswell. What kind of plague do people need to have to come up with shit like this?

m6s reclear btw, not prog, not first clear

[AvoSturmfaust]

Not only MCH is suffering, BRD apparently aswell. What kind of plague do people need to have to come up with shit like this?

m6s reclear btw, not prog, not first clear

Doesnt mean automatic that BRDs are in a bad state or anything, people have prefs even if its PF, i locked as example in P12 always BLMs out of my groups, its just how it is and will never change even if they improve the Balance or anything

[YukioKobayashi]

Doesnt mean automatic that BRDs are in a bad state or anything, people have prefs even if its PF, i locked as example in P12 always BLMs out of my groups, its just how it is and will never change even if they improve the Balance or anything

Then you are part of the problem aswell. Locking out jobs in a public partyfinder, not considering individual playerskill and raid experience only because you think that x-job does his job better makes you in my opinion a really bad player.
When im a partylead I would take a good player on a non meta job over a bad player chasing the meta any day. It's not only the job that does the damage, its the player who is pressing the buttons and I'm not risking getting someone on DNC who has no idea how to play this job because they are a MCH Main being basically forced to play it.