Trying to play MCH with PUG's is pure agony.

[Aco505]

Physical Ranged jobs are taxed about 10% damage for functionally no reason, and the 1% pity buff to damage they provide by existing is lower than the penalty they get for being ranged.

Ergo, there is no reason to bring a physical ranged to a party when you can just bring another Melee, Caster, or a battle rez.

The 1% buff is still very much required. No group goes without a p. range in hard content.

This doesn't change the fact that p. range should be brought for more than just that. For starters, the gap should not be more than 5%, if we follow SE's current philosophy on job balance.

[PercibelTheren]

The 1% buff is still very much required. No group goes without a p. range in hard content.

This doesn't change the fact that p. range should be brought for more than just that. For starters, the gap should not be more than 5%, if we follow SE's current philosophy on job balance.

I guess it is now that PCT has been nerfed. In the previous tier, on Zodiark I regularly saw groups skipping a rPHYS in favour of a PCT.

[Jamini]

The 1% buff is still very much required. No group goes without a p. range in hard content.

This doesn't change the fact that p. range should be brought for more than just that. For starters, the gap should not be more than 5%, if we follow SE's current philosophy on job balance.

You would think that, but you are wrong! Double caster comps not only are clearing, but are doing so easier than any comp with a prange!

An "Average" group is dealing around 170,000 - 180,000DPS (using M5 as a comparison since it has the most data). 1% of that group DPS is 1,800dps.

Replacing any prange (tops out at 27,000 rdps at 50th percentile) with any Black Mage or Melee (low end of 29,000 rdps, top end of 30,000rdps) gives your group a gain of 2,000-3,000 damage. Even accounting for the 1% lower damage on the new damage output source (200-300 dps loss) you still don't close the gap at all.

The actual numbers I've been running since dawntrail started are a bit more complicated considering group composition, and a small boost in raw HP is also useful for prog purposes... however generally adding a BLM or any melee in the place of your ranged is a net gain. PCT was also a net gain until this patch. RDM and SMN are a minor group DPS loss, in exchange for a battle rez.

If you have a RDM or SMN in your party, yeeting your ranged player and recruiting a black mage or Pictomancer is a strict, substantial gain for your group unless your group is a barse group.

[Aco505]

You would think that, but you are wrong! Double caster comps not only are clearing, but are doing so easier than any comp with a prange!

An "Average" group is dealing around 170,000 - 180,000DPS (using M5 as a comparison since it has the most data). 1% of that group DPS is 1,800dps.

Replacing any prange (tops out at 27,000 rdps at 50th percentile) with any Black Mage or Melee (low end of 29,000 rdps, top end of 30,000rdps) gives your group a gain of 2,000-3,000 damage. Even accounting for the 1% lower damage on the new damage output source (200-300 dps loss) you still don't close the gap at all.

The actual numbers I've been running since dawntrail started are a bit more complicated considering group composition, and a small boost in raw HP is also useful for prog purposes... however generally adding a BLM or any melee in the place of your ranged is a net gain. PCT was also a net gain until this patch. RDM and SMN are a minor group DPS loss, in exchange for a battle rez.

If you have a RDM or SMN in your party, yeeting your ranged player and recruiting a black mage or Pictomancer is a strict, substantial gain for your group unless your group is a barse group.

How many clears of M6S, M7S and M8S in week 1 had no physical range? In week 2? M5S is not the best example for this since the first fight tends to have lenient DPS and mitigation checks.

In the previous tier, BRD was quite close to melee, for instance, so avoiding the bonus was quite detrimental.

FRU has been cleared with four PCT, no healers or no tanks, yet it doesn't mean that it is optimal to do so.

[Jamini]

How many clears of M6S, M7S and M8S in week 1 had no physical range? In week 2? M5S is not the best example for this since the first fight tends to have lenient DPS and mitigation checks.

In the previous tier, BRD was quite close to melee, for instance, so avoiding the bonus was quite detrimental.

FRU has been cleared with four PCT, no healers or no tanks, yet it doesn't mean that it is optimal to do so.

A casual look at bard from 0-80th percentile will show bard was quite far behind melee. Oddly MCH was above water last tier until the 90th percentile due to how they work as a selfish DPS

Sticking your head in the sand and screaming physical ranged are fine won't make them fine, nor will it encourage people to allow MCH into their parties.

The solution is on CBU3 to actually fix ranged damage - by removing the pointless ranged tax.

[YukioKobayashi]

The solution is on CBU3 to actually fix ranged damage - by removing the pointless ranged tax.

The ranged tax is not pointless, removing it would only result in triple ranged comps in fights designed around 4 melee + 4 ranged jobs.
We have been there already not to long ago in e8s with the already existing ranged-tax.
A melee should always deal more damage with full uptime. SE needs to give us fights that take melee uptime away so they break even with ranged jobs.

[Jamini]

E8 also didn't have a hitbox the size of the moon orbit and melees had to worry more about dropping positionals.

Apples to oranges when many people argue MCH/BRD are some of the more complicated jobs in the game to play well and won't touch them.

Let's also not forget that bard and machinst are two less mobile jobs. MCH has zero mobility abilities, and bard has repelling shot- meanwhile smudge and AM both exist and pretty much every melee is loaded with dashes.

[Valence]

The 1% buff is still very much required. No group goes without a p. range in hard content.

This doesn't change the fact that p. range should be brought for more than just that. For starters, the gap should not be more than 5%, if we follow SE's current philosophy on job balance.

As long as it is even just 5%, the only reason to bring them will be the party bonus. Job balanced saw the gap reduced down to 5% ish both in the second half of ShB and EW, and it was no different. Those jobs do not bring a raise, therefore doing less damage means that the only reason they are included in parties is for the party bonus, nothing more.

Melees would cry their eyes out if positions were reversed and rphys players told them that 5% is okay.

You would think that, but you are wrong! Double caster comps not only are clearing, but are doing so easier than any comp with a prange!

An "Average" group is dealing around 170,000 - 180,000DPS (using M5 as a comparison since it has the most data). 1% of that group DPS is 1,800dps.

Replacing any prange (tops out at 27,000 rdps at 50th percentile) with any Black Mage or Melee (low end of 29,000 rdps, top end of 30,000rdps) gives your group a gain of 2,000-3,000 damage. Even accounting for the 1% lower damage on the new damage output source (200-300 dps loss) you still don't close the gap at all.

The actual numbers I've been running since dawntrail started are a bit more complicated considering group composition, and a small boost in raw HP is also useful for prog purposes... however generally adding a BLM or any melee in the place of your ranged is a net gain. PCT was also a net gain until this patch. RDM and SMN are a minor group DPS loss, in exchange for a battle rez.

If you have a RDM or SMN in your party, yeeting your ranged player and recruiting a black mage or Pictomancer is a strict, substantial gain for your group unless your group is a barse group.

This is not literally +1% damage.
This is +1% in main stats (STR/DEX/VIT/INT/MND).

I do not remember the exact numbers and they quite frankly keep changing due to many variables, but a job used to be in threat of losing the party bonus protection past 10-15% damage gap iirc (don't quote me on the eyeballed number, could be remembering wrong), which always comes pretty close at expansion releases within the rphys department. It is also possible that double PCT comps broke that barrier, that I haven't looked into.