They are gutting Black Mage even more in 7.2

[Rithy255]

It helps if we can define what "clunky" even means.

I've heard old PLD defined as clunky, SCH Energy Drain, Kaiten, long cast times, cast times in general, every gap closer. What counts as clunky and not? And within that definition, why would X mechanic count as clunky?

Clunky is the excuse people make up when they don't like how a job plays. Clunky basically means "wah wah I can't play it optimally without picking it up in one second"

BLM doesn't feel clunky to me, old DOT PLD didn't feel clunky ect.

The only thing "clunky" I can think of is the delay in boss attacks.

[TheDustyOne]

Clunky is the excuse people make up when they don't like how a job plays. Clunky basically means "wah wah I can't play it optimally without picking it up in one second"

BLM doesn't feel clunky to me, old DOT PLD didn't feel clunky ect.

The only thing "clunky" I can think of is the delay in boss attacks.

I mean, yeah that's the obvious definition. But even still, when someone says X is clunky, they don't usually want it to mean "I don't like how it plays", but rather something more like "it's contradictory to the rest of the jobs design; it encourages unorthodox play" or something along those lines. My biggest problem is that they don't go over why something is clunky in their view, instead just saying "clunky" without elaborating.

Old Anatman is something I'd point to as "clunky", especially the initial version in ShB that was oGCD since you could use it in the opener to squeeze in an extra GL stack just as the boss was pulled before starting the fight proper. The reason it was clunky in my view was because you had to be able to track server ticks (something that the UI just doesn't natively do outside asking one of the healers pop a regen beforehand) in the hopes that you could get a stack just in time to not screw up your opener. Further, it was obviously not the intended opener to use Anatman since it messed with the flow of an opener just for one GL stack.

Despite that however, I'm sure there were others that liked the idea of old Anatman and would've been disappointed at losing it when Anatman became a GCD. They'd be few in number, but even still, a "clunky" mechanic that was more or less optional was removed when it could've just been a mark of someone trying to get the absolute most out of their job.

In the end, I'd rather have a little "clunk" if it meant giving every job a unique feel and some optional optimizations.

[User202503201232]

I mean, yeah that's the obvious definition. But even still, when someone says X is clunky, they don't usually want it to mean "I don't like how it plays", but rather something more like "it's contradictory to the rest of the jobs design; it encourages unorthodox play" or something along those lines. My biggest problem is that they don't go over why something is clunky in their view, instead just saying "clunky" without elaborating.

Old Anatman is something I'd point to as "clunky", especially the initial version in ShB that was oGCD since you could use it in the opener to squeeze in an extra GL stack just as the boss was pulled before starting the fight proper. The reason it was clunky in my view was because you had to be able to track server ticks (something that the UI just doesn't natively do outside asking one of the healers pop a regen beforehand) in the hopes that you could get a stack just in time to not screw up your opener. Further, it was obviously not the intended opener to use Anatman since it messed with the flow of an opener just for one GL stack.

Despite that however, I'm sure there were others that liked the idea of old Anatman and would've been disappointed at losing it when Anatman became a GCD. They'd be few in number, but even still, a "clunky" mechanic that was more or less optional was removed when it could've just been a mark of someone trying to get the absolute most out of their job.

In the end, I'd rather have a little "clunk" if it meant giving every job a unique feel and some optional optimizations.

Peak clunk is probably 4.0 astro or 5.x summoner

4.0 optimal astro play required you to clip ogcds and use the 0.7s animation lock on ogcds to move on top of slidecasting. Also collective unconscious tick tracking.

5.x summoner required you to move in a precise way during the supposedly free movement Bahamut window so that none of Bahamut's autos ghost since he follows you around.

Honestly those little details were fun to me and modern jobs have become so boring now

[Absurdity]

Removing the timers and reducing the cast times so drastically brings it from one of the most difficult jobs to one of the easiest, very close to SMN territory. Keep Thunder up, don't overcap Polyglot, and know the correct(and obvious) static sequence for fire phases. That's all it has left.

I wouldn't even say that it brings it from difficult to easy.
At a baseline BLM is not very complicated, most of the difficulty comes from using the simple toolkit to work around external factors.

What these changes do however is almost completely erase the skill ceiling. No more AF/UI timers, faster cast times to the point where Triplecast doesn't actually make Fire IV faster anymore, infinite duration on your Fire III and Thunder procs, longer Leylines.
Your kit now just inherently solves most of the problems with no adjustments required on your end.

[Rithy255]

In the end, I'd rather have a little "clunk" if it meant giving every job a unique feel and some optional optimizations.

Pretty much jobs need pain points and little bit of "clunk" to stand out, I actually thought animation locks to dragoon added some skill expression to the job and were designed that way on purpose for example.

I don't think all examples of "clunk" or "pain points" are always good for example Heavensward Paladin should have been able to do block magic (or at the very least fights should have a physical importance that PLD isn't a meme grief job).

I think one big issue is that they don't just remove something from a job and try to find something to bring some extra skill in another way, they end up removing something from a job and completely ignore the massive skill expression they took out, the black mage rework is a key example of this they took out the timer... do they bother to find at least something else interesting for the black mage to manage...? no...?

Theirs some instances where things should be took out but the sheer lack of effort to find anything engaging to replace that frustrates me, I wish there was job designers that were actually passionate about making the jobs feel like a "job" and not just a animation visual difference from another job.

[mallleable]

To me there is a difference between jank, and funk. Jank is spamming Form Shift on MNK to keep Greased Lightning stacks in Malikah's Well before the rework, and someone in your party asking 'hey monk, are you okay?' (I was not okay). Jank is being completely unable to maintain Enochian because you have to slide down the pipes in The Copied Factory before Umbral Soul didn't completely freeze the timer. Jank is BRD having to go songless, and not being a bard for 30+ seconds at level 50. Jank is Dual Cast being consumed by Sprint. Jank is the many annoyances in FFXIV's menus. Jank is the Mogstation.

Funk is something like RDM's mana imbalance mechanic. Funk is getting a bunny when you mess up your Mudras. Funk is animation locks on, and being displaced by jumps on DRG. Funk is walking casts on the PVP versions of certain phys ranged jobs. Funk is sleeping dragons in Eureka. Funk is having to work around your Leylines. Jank is the result of clumsiness, and neglect. Funk is playing deliberately off beat, while keeping a groove.

I don't want jank, I want funk.

[ElysiumDragon]

Why do long timers make BLM clunky?

Like PCT’s reverse aetherhue combo and muses are longer than an average BLM class and nobody ever calls them clunky

Having a cast time longer than the global GCD for the same ability is, as far as I'm aware, an issue unique to Black Mage. It makes the job feel unresponsive and unpleasant to play, and runs in direct opposition to the standard set with every other combat job in the game. Black Mage NOT being a weave-heavy job makes it different in a way I genuinely appreciate, and should absolutely be the job's core gameplay identity. Fire IV feels satisfying to land, until you realise you clipped the GCD through no fault of your own.

[User202503201232]

Having a cast time longer than the global GCD for the same ability is, as far as I'm aware, an issue unique to Black Mage. It makes the job feel unresponsive and unpleasant to play, and runs in direct opposition to the standard set with every other combat job in the game. Black Mage NOT being a weave-heavy job makes it different in a way I genuinely appreciate, and should absolutely be the job's core gameplay identity. Fire IV feels satisfying to land, until you realise you clipped the GCD through no fault of your own.

That's what makes instant casts on black mage meaningful since swift and triple are best used on F4 or other long casts.

Without cast times being longer than the GCD the decision space for when to use swift and triple collapse into one singular dimension - to use it for uptime. This gutted an entire dimension of complexity and thinking. And when there is only one dimension there is also zero trade off.

[ElysiumDragon]

That's what makes instant casts on black mage meaningful since swift and triple are best used on F4 or other long casts.

Without cast times being longer than the GCD the decision space for when to use swift and triple collapse into one singular dimension - to use it for uptime. This gutted an entire dimension of complexity and thinking. And when there is only one dimension there is also zero trade off.

I'd argue that Jank isn't 'complexity', and agree with what someone else here said about the difference between 'funk', which gives a job identity, and 'jank', which harms the identity of the job. Black Mage having awkward cast times doesn't 'define' the job, it makes it unpleasant to play. Current Tillana doesn't give Dancer 'complexity', it ruins a core aspect of gauge management by punishing the player for things outside of their control.

[Supersnow845]

I'd argue that Jank isn't 'complexity', and agree with what someone else here said about the difference between 'funk', which gives a job identity, and 'jank', which harms the identity of the job. Black Mage having awkward cast times doesn't 'define' the job, it makes it unpleasant to play. Current Tillana doesn't give Dancer 'complexity', it ruins a core aspect of gauge management by punishing the player for things outside of their control.

Well that’s the thing. How do you decide what’s Jank and what isn’t. I don’t see why you think longer casts than recasts is Jank. You haven’t explained what’s wrong with it. “It feels unresponsive” why? The recast being shorter than the cast only comes into play with triplecast. Are the reverse aetherhue combo spells janky because they are long as well

What makes Jank in the first place