FF 14 has the worst dungeons

[Valence]

You claim being after understanding, and knowing what people are thinking, but the only thing you've ever been doing on those forums is asking people to design solutions for the issues they describe, derailing the thread so that you can then start proceed tearing them down one by one like a proper statu quo warrior. Don't go and pretend you're genuinely interested why players feel a certain way, else you wouldn't be asking this. This is also somewhere besides the point, because it doesn't invalidate their reasons, just - pontetially - their solutions.

Your reasoning is usually pretty biased and fallacious on itself since they try to assign rules that do work within the current ff14 model to a model that would potentially work under completely different models.

[Mawlzy]

I see your point, but you could argue that CC is also very boring and binary. Like, we have silence mechanics currently, it's basically "press the silence button when bar glows". You'd also need to load jobs/roles with CC abilities that don't fuck up their rotation otherwise it will make for a disatisfying gameplay loop.And randomness doesn't always cut it, look at Rubicante for example.

Sure, depends how it's implemented. I mostly play PvP where CC is actually overemphasized.

There are many CC effects that could be incorporated, particularly if the boss wasn't just a tank-and-spank-while-dodging affair. With adds, sleep could become relevant. How about heavy and bind? Debuffs we can apply to bosses? Something akin to lost actions; for example switching physical damage to magical and vice versa when needed. Distinguish between different types of damage: slashing, piercing, blunt force. The design space is enormous and almost completely ignored.

To me this is far more interesting than pressing buttons in the predetermined order that maximizes each job's dps output. But it would make it more difficult for raiders to say "hey, I'm 0.7% 'better' than you."

[Mawlzy]

I get why people can get tired of the formula. The issue is that the formula kinda created itself over the previous dungeon design from ARR and HW. For example, Toto-Rak had two pathways you could go through, yet one was definitly less worthwile than the other and people hardly ever took it. Same with the bonus rooms in Dzemael for example.
You also had some different traversal mechanics/hazards sometimes, but player feedback was that it was more of a hassle to play than fun most of the time (for example Aurum Vale poison puddles, Neverreap tornadoes). So instead SE kinda curated more on the way players were already handling dungeons.

Agreed, and yet even in DT there are dungeons that include interactable notes that provide additional background info that nobody playing "efficiently" will read. One reason I run content with NPCs whenever I can.

I imagine someone will now remind me this is an MMO, and I'm doing it wrong unless I play with people.

[Red-thunder]

You claim being after understanding, and knowing what people are thinking, but the only thing you've ever been doing on those forums is asking people to design solutions for the issues they describe, derailing the thread so that you can then start proceed tearing them down one by one like a proper statu quo warrior. Don't go and pretend you're genuinely interested why players feel a certain way, else you wouldn't be asking this. This is also somewhere besides the point, because it doesn't invalidate their reasons, just - pontetially - their solutions.

Your reasoning is usually pretty biased and fallacious on itself since they try to assign rules that do work within the current ff14 model to a model that would potentially work under completely different models.

100%. Every solution around here gets shot down because "players don't want this" or "netcode can't handle it" or worse "I'm happy with the way things are."

[Sekundessounet]

Agreed, and yet even in DT there are dungeons that include interactable notes that provide additional background info that nobody playing "efficiently" will read. One reason I run content with NPCs whenever I can.

I imagine someone will now remind me this is an MMO, and I'm doing it wrong unless I play with people.

No you're fine, most of the time when I have first timers I ask them if they want to stop and read the notes

[Mawlzy]

No you're fine, most of the time when I have first timers I ask them if they want to stop and read the notes

You're a model citizen

[Hallarem]

The more I think about it, the less sense it makes to rework dungeons to be more challenging, when the rewards arent worth it.

GEAR DOESNT MATTER IN THIS GAME, STATS DONT MATTER IN THIS GAME, it doesn't make you more powerful, you have no open world or anything similar to flex your gear in. Its all just glam, and even then they barely put any effort in most of the dungeons on that and just give you recolour of old gear or accessories.

[Mikey_R]

You claim being after understanding, and knowing what people are thinking, but the only thing you've ever been doing on those forums is asking people to design solutions for the issues they describe, derailing the thread so that you can then start proceed tearing them down one by one like a proper statu quo warrior. Don't go and pretend you're genuinely interested why players feel a certain way, else you wouldn't be asking this. This is also somewhere besides the point, because it doesn't invalidate their reasons, just - pontetially - their solutions.

Your reasoning is usually pretty biased and fallacious on itself since they try to assign rules that do work within the current ff14 model to a model that would potentially work under completely different models.

I don't know what people think, that is why I ask.

I do not always ask for solutions, case in point, I never asked for a solution to the 'DDR' nature of fights, I'm just trying to get an idea of what they see and compare it to what I experience. Again, if I am missing something, tell me.

This isn't derailing the thread, this is what having a discussion looks like. This whole thing is about dungeons and, as always these things do leak into talking about other areas of the game with similar designs.

Yes, I tend to point out issues with some things people say, but that is my opinion, feel free to disagree or explain why you don't think my concerns are valid. Again, this is a discussion, let's have that discussion.

The only reason I ask is because I care. Sharing knowledge and view points, criticising ideas etc. is what makes ideas better.

If my reasons are biased and fallacious, tell me how they are. I mean, they probably do have a bit of bias in them, it is my reasoning after all, but tell me why it is fallacious.

The problem I have seen with many people at the moment is the fact they keep regurgitating the easy 'buzz sentence' that happens to be the flavour of the month, but when questioned on it, you never really get an answer.

Fights are more 'DDR', first, we can only guess what that really means. Stand in that one safe spot is the only thing given, but that is the solution to most mechanics. It is such a broad statement, it basically means nothing. Mechanic order? As I have said, nothing has changed between ARR and now, mixing up AoEs, (in/out, stack/spread etc.), again, nothing has changed. If you do not think this assessment is valid, again, tell me why.

[angelar_]

So instead SE kinda curated more on the way players were already handling dungeons.

People will always take the path of least resistance, but you can guarantee it will be uninteresting if you make only one path.

Like with a lot of things in PvE design in FFXIV, it really boils down to the same matter of "some people come to the game to have fun," vs. "some people come to the game to have the easiest cynical grind." Cough CT

GEAR DOESNT MATTER IN THIS GAME, STATS DONT MATTER IN THIS GAME, it doesn't make you more powerful, you have no open world or anything similar to flex your gear in. Its all just glam, and even then they barely put any effort in most of the dungeons on that and just give you recolour of old gear or accessories.

"i don't do difficult content"

[Miguel85NYC]

The more I think about it, the less sense it makes to rework dungeons to be more challenging, when the rewards arent worth it.

GEAR DOESNT MATTER IN THIS GAME, STATS DONT MATTER IN THIS GAME, it doesn't make you more powerful, you have no open world or anything similar to flex your gear in. Its all just glam, and even then they barely put any effort in most of the dungeons on that and just give you recolour of old gear or accessories.

I 100% agree, When you get new gear you dont feel anymore powerful which sucks. reason why I dont get excited to get new gear.. in WoW when you get new gear you'll feel like a god