Ban premade parties in Frontline please

[AllenThyl]

Help me understand something. Earlier you stated:



but then

.

So, the way I'm reading this is they used chat to coordinate (like you said you were fine with), but that was distracting? I apologize, but these two statements seem in conflict with each other to me.

Please. Let's not pretend that there aren't some "commanders" that are effectively trying to micromanage everyone with macros that light up the whole chat all the time. Which in fact, do get annoying and counterproductive, especially when they a) make bad calls and b) drown out the more important calls. Nothing wrong with engagement macros to coordinate burst, but they don't need 8 sound effects over a span of 5 seconds every 10 seconds.
Frontline is first and foremost a strategic game mode. Yes, resolving engagements to one's advantage is always helpful. Frontline hower is not, as someone else here suggested, some free for all arcade brawler simulator. And having commanders who do nothing but chase the nearest engagement with no regard for positioning of all teams, currently available objectives and resupply lines, can be a very effective way to lose the game, even when "winning" engagements.

[Atreus]

There's that but also, in the previous game, the team "obeyed" the callouts and we won (mainly because the other teams ignored us). But that game was extremely boring. Winning and losing aren't the be all and end all of Frontline. It's a videogame most people play to have fun. But things like oppressive premades and this in-your-face commanding style make the game less fun.

lmao ok so, don't tell people "if you only just read" when you're inconsistent and disingenuous. You really want Frontline to be a shitting grounds for people who want rewards for the least effort possible. The people trying to win make you feel bad about your own efforts and we can't be having that!

[Menriq]

Please. Let's not pretend that there aren't some "commanders" that are effectively trying to micromanage everyone with macros that light up the whole chat all the time. Which in fact, do get annoying and counterproductive, especially when they a) make bad calls and b) drown out the more important calls. Nothing wrong with engagement macros to coordinate burst, but they don't need 8 sound effects over a span of 5 seconds every 10 seconds.
Frontline is first and foremost a strategic game mode. Yes, resolving engagements to one's advantage is always helpful. Frontline hower is not, as someone else here suggested, some free for all arcade brawler simulator. And having commanders who do nothing but chase the nearest engagement with no regard for positioning of all teams, currently available objectives and resupply lines, can be a very effective way to lose the game, even when "winning" engagements.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the one always saying words matter and have meaning? Then taking them at their word, someone did exactly what they said they were ok with and comes back with "We ended up losing because their attempt at commanding distracted and annoyed everyone more than it helped". Based on what they said about the chat every 10 seconds, that part at least makes sense to me. There are plenty of times where you go in, retreat, go back in, retreat in very short periods of time. You can't chat in CC except for quickchat, and those get spammed often as well with similar frequency of "Attacking <x>" "Falling back" "Regroup" "Attacking <x>" "Retreat".

I also asked several times, and still never got an answer, of how many people are considered a premade. That also can make a huge difference in these discussions.

[Burmecia]

banning premades would not change anything

[AllenThyl]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the one always saying words matter and have meaning? Then taking them at their word, someone did exactly what they said they were ok with and comes back with "We ended up losing because their attempt at commanding distracted and annoyed everyone more than it helped". Based on what they said about the chat every 10 seconds, that part at least makes sense to me. There are plenty of times where you go in, retreat, go back in, retreat in very short periods of time.

I am, so let's read the post again (emphasis mine):

I played a few games yesterday with a person doing 'follow the waymark' and 'fallback' macros every ten seconds.

Yes, this style of "commanding" is indeed often counterproductive. While I think having "a" commanders is usually better than having none, I have seen more than enough bad ones, whose constant and unnecessary pinging lead to no one properly paying attention to anything. If everything has priority, nothing has priority. This is essentially an argument about command doctrine. Imho, chat and pings should be reserved for important announcements, and allow participants some leeway in how to execute the general strategy. Again, nothing wrong against engagement macros to coordinate, but they don't need so many sound effects. They can have 2 or 3, and be just as effective. People's attention is limited, and it's better everyone focuses on the fight going on than having to parse through half a dozen lines every 5 seconds. There is no need to have this discussion in absolutes, as if one commander 2 pings a minute to convey current high level strategy is the same as another spamming the chat, just because both employ the same tools of chat and sound effects.

[Mawlzy]

There's that but also, in the previous game, the team "obeyed" the callouts and we won (mainly because the other teams ignored us). But that game was extremely boring. Winning and losing aren't the be all and end all of Frontline. It's a videogame most people play to have fun. But things like oppressive premades and this in-your-face commanding style make the game less fun.

I've been criticized for muting in-your-face commanders, but doing so makes the matches more enjoyable for me and I'm convinced it doesn't make me play any worse.

If you plough through the megathread, you'll find my main gripe was playing on the same team as oppressive premades. Since 7.1 I've found the issue significantly reduced simply because in the current Aether meta they're simply not as dominant as they were. Plus I've switched jobs and can cause chaos from the wings.

I still think the fundamental issue is putting the entire player pool into the same bucket. Like I don't think AFKers should be there at all, but putting everyone in the same pool really is a mess. Like I'm pretty bad at PvE, so I don't raid, but can still enjoy the "brain dead" dungeons, typically with randos of similar skill. In FL, the skill gap between inexperienced players who are actually trying, and semi-static premades is enormous.

[Mawlzy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the one always saying words matter and have meaning? Then taking them at their word, someone did exactly what they said they were ok with and comes back with "We ended up losing because their attempt at commanding distracted and annoyed everyone more than it helped". Based on what they said about the chat every 10 seconds, that part at least makes sense to me. There are plenty of times where you go in, retreat, go back in, retreat in very short periods of time. You can't chat in CC except for quickchat, and those get spammed often as well with similar frequency of "Attacking <x>" "Falling back" "Regroup" "Attacking <x>" "Retreat".

I also asked several times, and still never got an answer, of how many people are considered a premade. That also can make a huge difference in these discussions.

When I use the term I'm referring to a 4-player light party.

[Menriq]

I am, so let's read the post again (emphasis mine):



Yes, this style of "commanding" is indeed often counterproductive. While I think having "a" commanders is usually better than having none, I have seen more than enough bad ones, whose constant and unnecessary pinging lead to no one properly paying attention to anything. If everything has priority, nothing has priority. This is essentially an argument about command doctrine. Imho, chat and pings should be reserved for important announcements, and allow participants some leeway in how to execute the general strategy. Again, nothing wrong against engagement macros to coordinate, but they don't need so many sound effects. They can have 2 or 3, and be just as effective. People's attention is limited, and it's better everyone focuses on the fight going on than having to parse through half a dozen lines every 5 seconds. There is no need to have this discussion in absolutes, as if one commander 2 pings a minute to convey current high level strategy is the same as another spamming the chat, just because both employ the same tools of chat and sound effects.

I think a lot of people are in agreement the sound effects are overkill. If I had to guess, that is where a lot of the annoyance comes from. I'm of the opinion that if people want to follow, that's fine. If they don't, that is also fine. My heartburn is with different parts of the community wanting different things that are in opposite directions. For example, OP wants to ban premades. There is another thread about only first place getting rewards and nothing for second or third place. Taken together, it would make sense that if you only get rewarded for first place, you would probably see a significant increase in premades to increase their odds for first place. I realize we don't have anything but a casual FL mode, so maybe a better course would be to suggest a competitive mode that would allow for more restrictions.

[Mawlzy]

I think a lot of people are in agreement the sound effects are overkill. If I had to guess, that is where a lot of the annoyance comes from. I'm of the opinion that if people want to follow, that's fine. If they don't, that is also fine. My heartburn is with different parts of the community wanting different things that are in opposite directions. For example, OP wants to ban premades. There is another thread about only first place getting rewards and nothing for second or third place. Taken together, it would make sense that if you only get rewarded for first place, you would probably see a significant increase in premades to increase their odds for first place. I realize we don't have anything but a casual FL mode, so maybe a better course would be to suggest a competitive mode that would allow for more restrictions.

Yup, and/or custom matches, both of which would be easier to arrange if team sizes were smaller.

[Menriq]

When I use the term I'm referring to a 4-player light party.

So using a LP as a premade, that is 1/6 of the team. Not an insignificant amount, but not enough IMO to be able to dominate the other teams alone. To me, a premade would be considered 12 or more, but I could even see a FP being enough to swing the tides in a certain manner.