Would you consider greedy DPS Mechanics on Tanks/Healers good or bad?

[Shougun]

I always felt eh to the mana thing with lucid dream because I just kept using it on cooldown (after a certain threshold), so unless people REAAAAAALLLLLLYYY did poorly I would effectively have infinite mana. I do think that resource management can be fun, and that could be unique to each job. We already have that in some sense with the gimmick resources, but mana is definitely, at this point, feeling like a vestigial outside of specific oopsies (use lucid, die, get revived, nice lol). Like if everyone is BLM with MP then.. we don't need MP, so have more fun with those resources such that they are meaningful.



I do miss support skills that were unique, and in general content I think it's fine, but good luck balancing that in balance sensitive content- which I think is the route they took (easy to balance, less likely to hear raiders bemoan). Personally I'm starting to lean to go more unique, YES there will be situations where you're like "we HAVE to have a Ninja" but also make gearing other jobs in those content even more reasonable, as well as some horizontal lite mechanics that can make up for some lacking elements, such that you will be playing more than one job or having more armor you'll be using for different situations (BiS isn't just one setup). There will be attempts to balance, still, but like if someone says "I want to have the same defensive skills as the Paladin against physical damage" or "I want the same magic defense as the dark knight" and SE goes "I'll make sure it isn't awful, but no- that's intentional" lol. Can also use that variety stat system they have to greater effect like it pools most commonly used vs least commonly and will add even further bonuses, so if no one is using MCH on a fight when you show up the bonus is even larger (this info will be made easily accessible).

[Absurdity]

I always felt eh to the mana thing with lucid dream because I just kept using it on cooldown (after a certain threshold), so unless people REAAAAAALLLLLLYYY did poorly I would effectively have infinite mana.

AST was really the only one that could do some slightly interesting things with Lucid besides pressing it on cooldown. Running minimum piety and instead try to catch as many of your buffs, including Lucid, with Celestial Opposition.
I will never stop being annoyed that they removed Astro's time manipulation abilities.

[Shougun]

AST was really the only one that could do some slightly interesting things with Lucid besides pressing it on cooldown. Running minimum piety and instead try to catch as many of your buffs, including Lucid, with Celestial Opposition.
I will never stop being annoyed that they removed Astro's time manipulation abilities.

I was not in favor of that and include that in the de-flavor-ification of the game. I am a bit sad that their solution to intricacies are just purge. :/


Originally I had copium that maybe they were going more heart of the cards theme'd and time mage was coming out, like when WHM started to gobble up holy spells I thought "perfect, room for a Geomancer (or something)". Yeh, no dice lol.

[Valence]

Melee ran out of TP when sprinting and using too many ranged attacks. TP regen wasn't high either and TP rotations were not TP neutral either. Basically, they boil down to giving resources to people when things have gone wrong.

And again, we are going back to Black Mage, did Summoner or Redmage not want to use it? Probably not, especially if the Summoner or Red Mage are the ones raising. We have already established that they are MP negative, so no reason to keep eating into that. So, in the vast majority of cases, Black Mage was the only one that used it, and it had, in effect, infinite MP, so there was no cost to the Black Mage for using it. Just like Goad had no cost to the Ninja or any other jobs.

Again, they are essentially the same mechanically, so it makes no sense to enjoy one but not the other, especially when it was specifically enjoyed as a Black Mage.

In HW half if not more of the TP jobs ran out of TP past a point, notable culprits being MNK after merely a minute or two, and PLD. And also release MCH that had awful costs attached to things like lead shot. It wasn't just when things went wrong. In SB I do agree that rotations were more TP neutral or positive unfortunately and that's where resource support started to become meaningless on a lot of points.

I am not arguing against your case equating manashift with goad.

AST was really the only one that could do some slightly interesting things with Lucid besides pressing it on cooldown. Running minimum piety and instead try to catch as many of your buffs, including Lucid, with Celestial Opposition.
I will never stop being annoyed that they removed Astro's time manipulation abilities.

There was (and still is) some BLM non standard tech involving Lucid as well, even though the job is technically a mana battery.

HW/SB BRD also benefited indirectly from good Lucid planning from manashift battery casters that weren't BLM.

I do miss support skills that were unique, and in general content I think it's fine, but good luck balancing that in balance sensitive content- which I think is the route they took (easy to balance, less likely to hear raiders bemoan). Personally I'm starting to lean to go more unique, YES there will be situations where you're like "we HAVE to have a Ninja" but also make gearing other jobs in those content even more reasonable, as well as some horizontal lite mechanics that can make up for some lacking elements, such that you will be playing more than one job or having more armor you'll be using for different situations (BiS isn't just one setup). There will be attempts to balance, still, but like if someone says "I want to have the same defensive skills as the Paladin against physical damage" or "I want the same magic defense as the dark knight" and SE goes "I'll make sure it isn't awful, but no- that's intentional" lol. Can also use that variety stat system they have to greater effect like it pools most commonly used vs least commonly and will add even further bonuses, so if no one is using MCH on a fight when you show up the bonus is even larger (this info will be made easily accessible).

I do think that the problem with Goad and Shadewalker was that they were exclusive to NIN. Had they been role based (or even working differently and uniquely per job that had them), or a rphys thing, it would have constrained compositions a lot less especially when the weight of a specific ability (shadewalker) was so high that it made serious parties almost require it for tanks to perform better. Much like the piercing debuff exclusive to DRG for example.

[Absurdity]

There was (and still is) some BLM non standard tech involving Lucid as well, even though the job is technically a mana battery.

HW/SB BRD also benefited indirectly from good Lucid planning from manashift battery casters that weren't BLM.

True, but for everything but Astro (a long long time ago) it was always a thing you just pressed when needed. Lucid was used for optimization but Lucid itself had no interaction with anything else in your kit.

Even for manashifting Foe's Requiem you technically didn't need Lucid, it was just a stand-alone MP recovery tool.

[technole]

That’s really not what they are asking

They are asking about your opinions on “selfish mechanics” like energy drain

ED is variable, you still have plenty of options even if you used them up. Eat the fairy, all the good players do it anyway for ED or emergency stacks especially back when Living Dead needed 100%

[Ath192]

Again, they are essentially the same mechanically, so it makes no sense to enjoy one but not the other, especially when it was specifically enjoyed as a Black Mage.

I mean, clearly there were enough people that felt and found them different that the devs kept MP and got rid of TP right. So it's not that crazy some do see a difference. Unfortunately, they have made MP more and more irrelevant each xpac. There are some instances where on a full BIS, full DPS Sage build, MP is slightly negative but assuming you don't have to raise you can still keep full uptime without running out. But thats a total niche scenario and not really representative of how obsolete MP has become.

[Mikey_R]

I mean, clearly there were enough people that felt and found them different that the devs kept MP and got rid of TP right.

This is about Mana Shift and Goad. They are functionally the same thing except one is for TP and one is for MP. You liked one, but not the other with special attention to Mana Shift on Black Mages.

This has nothing to do with the MP and TP system and all to do with how illogical it is that 2 actions, that are functionally the same, can harbour different opinions.

[Ath192]

This is about Mana Shift and Goad. They are functionally the same thing except one is for TP and one is for MP. You liked one, but not the other with special attention to Mana Shift on Black Mages.

This has nothing to do with the MP and TP system and all to do with how illogical it is that 2 actions, that are functionally the same, can harbour different opinions.

Wait... what? Did you read what I said? I am going to quote for you:

"The only thing I didn't enjoy was TP and goad - the concept of your player getting too physically tired to attack was a bit too much for me."

It's the TP system and goad by extension as a part of it I didn't enjoy. Not goad in a vacuum.

That's not the conversation I was having. You need to work on understanding context clues here. Unless you didn't mean to reply to me and were trying to make some random take for the general reader.

[Mikey_R]

Wait... what? Did you read what I said? I am going to quote for you:

"The only thing I didn't enjoy was TP and goad - the concept of your player getting too physically tired to attack was a bit too much for me."

And jobs that use MP are too tired/don't have enough aether to use spells. Literally the same concept.