8.0 rework will be a joke

[Yeol]

I'll quote myself from a different thread.

8.0 Copium.

Players won't be happy if some jobs perform better or have an advantage in certain encounters

I'm a big fan of 'meta'. Let job selection matter for World Race, Week 1 Savage again.

Usually, people asking for unique gameplay are also asking for jobs within the same role to output similar damage numbers. Which for me feels meh. Making jobs unique should also affect their skill ceiling and their damage output.

But I guess the vast majority of players want/prefer fun gameplay over rewarding gameplay. Combining both fun and rewarding seems to be mission impossible for most games.

[CaedemSanguis]

I'll quote myself from a different thread.

I think they can manage balance (not perfect balance oc but it will only affect HC raiders) + reward + fun

they did it in HW

[Yeol]

I think they can manage balance (not perfect balance oc but it will only affect HC raiders) + reward + fun

they did it in HW

Heavensward & even Stromblood got a lot of backlash from the playerbase.

People constantly complained if their favorite job wasn't part of meta. Most of the people complaining aren't even participating in World Race nor clearing Savage week 1.

Non-meta comps can still clear Savage week 3~4 just fine with tome gear & Savage loot drops. Yet, people still complained just because they want to feel good about playing a meta job.

There were a lot of problems in PF. People were locking out/kicking certain jobs because they're not part of meta. Despite the fact that it was probably week 4+ where forcing meta is redundant.

[Absurdity]

There were a lot of problems in PF. People were locking out/kicking certain jobs because they're not part of meta. Despite the fact that it was probably week 4+ where forcing meta is redundant.

People locking out jobs is greatly exaggerated, might've been a case in early SB where Samurai would get oneshot by raid wides and Whitemage generated so much enmity it was an actual pain to deal with. The sentiment got occasionally carried over into Sigmascape but it wasn't exactly rampant.

And during Alphascape I never had a problem getting into a pf group, even on the lower performing jobs.

Were people complaining? Of course. Shitters, because let's be honest that's what they are, will always complain that their job isn't the best, is too hard, too clunky, too whatever, because they want all of the glory with none of the work.
That is never going to change, no matter how failure-proof they make the gameplay.

At some point the devs need to realize that designing job gameplay for the absolute lowest common denominator is a futile effort, because they will tunnel right under whatever floor they put the bar on.

[CaedemSanguis]

Heavensward & even Stromblood got a lot of backlash from the playerbase.

People constantly complained if their favorite job wasn't part of meta. Most of the people complaining aren't even participating in World Race nor clearing Savage week 1.

Non-meta comps can still clear Savage week 3~4 just fine with tome gear & Savage loot drops. Yet, people still complained just because they want to feel good about playing a meta job.

There were a lot of problems in PF. People were locking out/kicking certain jobs because they're not part of meta. Despite the fact that it was probably week 4+ where forcing meta is redundant.

the problem was Gordias (gear check) not the balance, it's like if M4s or P8s had a "i730" "i630" min ilvl requirement

[Yeol]

the problem was Gordias (gear check) not the balance, it's like if M4s or P8s had a "i730" "i630" min ilvl requirement

Yep, it was mostly gear-gated. Since fights only dropped random gear that was job locked + 2 drops instead of 3. Meaning you can go few weeks without members getting any useful loot from Savage.

[Valence]

I'll quote myself from a different thread.

This is conflating rewarding with skill ceiling and damage output.
This is also trying to wedge an opposition between fun and rewarding, which is a bit mindblowing to me.

There were a lot of problems in PF. People were locking out/kicking certain jobs because they're not part of meta. Despite the fact that it was probably week 4+ where forcing meta is redundant.

No more than today. And I've raided on Aether back in SB and have virtually never seen jobs locked out of PF beyond "log runs", and Aether has always been notorious for weird takes with this.

[Yeol]

This is conflating rewarding with skill ceiling and damage output.
This is also trying to wedge an opposition between fun and rewarding, which is a bit mindblowing to me.

Part of the reward for playing a high-ceiling job correctly is dealing more damage. This doesn't mean that more punishing jobs aren't fun to play. HW DRK & MCH come to mind. It felt satisfying & rewarding when playing them correctly. They were punishing to mistakes, but still fun. Others might disagree & say they had a bad design. This entire topic about job design & what people find fun is subjective. What we should agree on is that more effort should be rewarded with more damage. Equating high effort with low effort is not fair.

[Valence]

Part of the reward for playing a high-ceiling job correctly is dealing more damage. This doesn't mean that more punishing jobs aren't fun to play. HW DRK & MCH come to mind. It felt satisfying & rewarding when playing them correctly. They were punishing to mistakes, but still fun. Others might disagree & say they had a bad design. This entire topic about job design & what people find fun is subjective. What we should agree on is that more effort should be rewarded with more damage. Equating high effort with low effort is not fair.

I agree with everything you said except for the part of damage output differences based on skill, for the simple reason that I do believe in good accessibility across the board and high ceilings across the board as well.