Chaotic is midcore, in case you were wondering

[Supersnow845]

What midcore actually is (which will never be agreed on) is functionally irrelevant to what this discussion actually stems from

The problem more centres on the fact that whether you consider chaotic cloud midcore or not the fact remains that the most common discussion point about lack of content that’s being framed as midcore content is NOT chaotic cloud

Sure if you want to argue “don’t ask for midcore content if you want an alliance raid where every boss is about innocence EX level because that’s basically hard casual” then that’s valid but whether you personally consider chaotic midcore or not is functionally irreverent to the fact that there is still no content between shiva normal and your average extreme

[OlafQuintessa]

You say all this yet then posit that Chaotic is midcore when it's objectively harder than any Extreme released in the last six years.

Yeah I was being a little bit sarcastic since Chaotic seems so obviously not midcore to me. Having said that, the discussion here, reddit, YouTube etc has opened my eyes to a few things.

- For a lot of people extreme really is midcore. I find that hard to relate to but I guess there's something to learn from that.
- There's a big difference between JP and EN with extreme probably well accepted as mid core there.
- Ozma and Co are designing for JP so we're never going to get anything of difficulty in between normal and extreme, because for JP it's not even a concern. Half savage or a sliding scale will never happen.
- There are a few extremes like Valigarmanda and Byakko that are at the easier end, and if you want to step up that's where you're supposed to start. Don't expect any different.

[Shougun]

Yeah I've seen some people that I think are not aware of their surroundings, it's like me telling my wife 'It takes two' is easy, meaningless info to her who has trouble with the camera. For me, sometimes, I will have to play two controllers at once to beat a level, for her it was too hard lol. Part of my brain is like ".... This isn't hard" but the smarter side that doesn't have to sleep on the couch knows that I've also been doing this far longer and 'get' the mechanics.

Ex/savage are definitely not easy to a scrub, and especially if they're in a group of similar people. I'm seeing "it's so easy" from the people who are harvesting like skilled players.. which maybe sure (also if you're using add-ons you shouldn't..). But toss regular Joe into a 10 minute guide video with multiple do or wipe mechanics ... Ain't easy.

Also I find it funny the stereotype of Japan culture appears to (if I take what I read as truth) produce better player win rates. Our yolo stereotype style kickin our win rate butts lol. Unfortunate that probably is impacting the design against us though, you can see the content is very rigid (memorize it's easy, don't and 'good luck').

[Buttobi]

Ex/savage are definitely not easy to a scrub, and especially if they're in a group of similar people. I'm seeing "it's so easy" from the people who are harvesting like skilled players.. which maybe sure (also if you're using add-ons you shouldn't..). But toss regular Joe into a 10 minute guide video with multiple do or wipe mechanics ... Ain't easy.

People on this forum really just take their skills in video games for granted and assume anyone can achieve this level at their speed. There are people who either do not play many video games or they do not play mmo's in general. These players might have a hard time grasping challenges at the same speed an experienced player will. The lack of awareness for these types of players in this game is honestly concerning.

I also am baffled people are still arguing about the definition of midcore when the real issue is the difficulty scaling in this game. Whether you find ex trials midcore or not, this game has an awful difficulty curve. This pointless phrase does not help anyone understand what this game needs at all. It just creates this discussion that loops back in on itself multiple times "ex trial is midcore" "no it's not". Why does anyone care what name we give it when there is a clear identifiable problem which is the lack of content that bridges between normal and ex?

[sparroww]

There are at least three major discords (one per strat) for chaotic in NA alone, as well as many smaller static discords. There are sufficient people who have over twenty clears who still form parties to farm demimateria.

Last I checked Chaotic had a higher clear AND reclear rate than Ex3.

I don't know what else to tell you. Perhaps the people who enjoy this fight are... I don't know ... playing the game?

unsure where you're getting this data from but if you check how many got the achievement for Chaotic raid vs ex3, you will notice its alot lower than ex3. you can check that in Lalachievements or FFXIV Collect.

[Havenchild]

Why does anyone care what name we give it when there is a clear identifiable problem which is the lack of content that bridges between normal and ex?

Because people do not want to admit that they are actually unskilled players by shifting the definition on what midcore is. It's a useless word because the content it specifically would apply to the most (EX) is actually too hard for some people, again, who are unskilled.

If you were to put Chaotic on a mechanical level, it actually is on par with an EX, and it's all relatively easy to grasp concepts we've seen in the game over and over, (Stack Spread, In, Out, Look Away etc) but when you add 23 other people vs the usual 7, you have upped the fail points by 3fold at least, which makes it a low savage level.

Even players saying something in this thread like we want "a savage mechanic that can wipe the raid but less of them" is a nebulous ask because thats exactly what chaotic is already but they still complain about it.

If you have a mechanic that can wipe a raid, well amplify that by 23 people and its the exact situation with chaotic. What complainers really want is more braindead content that either can't wipe you outright or that with enough res mages you can brute force it with no issue which is basically a normal alliance raid.

[Mawlzy]

Because people do not want to admit that they are actually unskilled players by shifting the definition on what midcore is. It's a useless word because the content it specifically would apply to the most (EX) is actually too hard for some people, again, who are unskilled.

If you were to put Chaotic on a mechanical level, it actually is on par with an EX, and it's all relatively easy to grasp concepts we've seen in the game over and over, (Stack Spread, In, Out, Look Away etc) but when you add 23 other people vs the usual 7, you have upped the fail points by 3fold at least, which makes it a low savage level.

Even players saying something in this thread like we want "a savage mechanic that can wipe the raid but less of them" is a nebulous ask because thats exactly what chaotic is already but they still complain about it.

If you have a mechanic that can wipe a raid, well amplify that by 23 people and its the exact situation with chaotic. What complainers really want is more braindead content that either can't wipe you outright or that with enough res mages you can brute force it with no issue which is basically a normal alliance raid.

And your evidence for this is what exactly? I have seen nobody ask for this.

[AyumiCosplayGlam]

snip

Like you said, the underlying issue, is the lack of bridge between Extreme and Normal content, it dosn't matter where you draw the line of "midcore" as a term, its just semantics at the end of the day.
But i sincerely believe that a playerbase is not healthy if we draw the line of "midcore" before Extremes.
I am not going into details, but according to lalachievements almost anyone who did Sphene Extreme, also did Arcadion Savage. Which means 2 things, 1 is that the transition between Extreme and Savage is actually pretty seamless, and 2, is that midcore does not exist.
Anyway, like i said, semantics.

In my opinion, Extreme is too big of a jump after normal content. It does not matter how many times you complete the normal version of a trial, the boss still uses completely new mechanics that are most of the time just cheap "gotcha" mechanics that makes you wipe several times until everyone learns what exactly is happening.

Lets take Diamond Weapon as an example: There is nothing in normal mode that prepares you for the cleaves with the numbers and extreme does not really tell what is going to happen until it happens in which case its already over.
That mechanic is my perfect example of what a difficulty between Normal and Extreme should be.
What if we had a mode, where that mechanic is properly telegraphed before the cleave happens, so the players can actually prepare for it without dying pointlessly? Maybe try solve it pre-emptively even when they see it for the first time?
Unlikely that it is going to actually happen, especially for the first time but its still more fair to show us what is going to happen.
Once a mode like that exist, we can indeed take the scary step into Extreme where we dont have telegraphs but know what mechanics do exactly because the game actually teach us beforehand!

Mechanics are not difficult to do in Extremes at all, the problem is that the game tries to wipe groups for individual mistakes, bodychecks and well hidden mechanics that does not reveal themselves at all or until the last second, which is scary for a lot of people.
Not because they cant learn it, but because they dont find learning through wiping over and over fun.

[Havenchild]

And your evidence for this is what exactly? I have seen nobody ask for this.

Because if the content is capable of a party wipe for a mechanic failure, this playerbase immediately calls it hardcore and savage tier. People in this very thread have said as much. So yes, these complainers do not like content that forces them to not be brainoff gamers. If you find CAR mechanically as savage tier, you really outing yourself for not having much savage experience cause all the damn mechs are in dungeons already and more oftenly appear in EX.

The only thing that separates CAR is the fact that you can't outright bulldoze it with ressing.

[Merrigan]

Because if the content is capable of a party wipe for a mechanic failure, this playerbase immediately calls it hardcore and savage tier. People in this very thread have said as much. So yes, these complainers do not like content that forces them to not be brainoff gamers. If you find CAR mechanically as savage tier, you really outing yourself for not having much savage experience cause all the damn mechs are in dungeons already and more oftenly appear in EX.

The only thing that separates CAR is the fact that you can't outright bulldoze it with ressing.

Could you quote the posts explicitly saying that it's the wipe that's considered abnormal? Because as much as I think it's not really accepted now, I'm struggling to see what you're referring to in this particular thread.