Chaotic is midcore, in case you were wondering

[Chasingstars]

On that definition I think many other MMOs do midcore content very well. WoW’s Mythic+ system I believe is an epitome example of midcore done right. Dungeon content that starts out at a difficulty level a little higher than the highest available “Dungeon Finder” difficulty, and scales up. Rewards scale with difficulty achieved.

Until dungeon delves happened with TWW. Where it turned out casual content that is at best midcore content is preferrable to the playerbase than it is run mythic+. Although that isn't just gearing purposes, although that is part of it. TWW decided to make Mythic 0 into Mythic 10 in terms of difficulty and then extending the higher difficulties from there, this led to a lot of players being stonewalled on arriving to M12, as M12 is more akin to the old M22. That the most reliable method of clearing such content is running a comp of Protection Paladin (tank), Discipline Priest (healer), Frost Death Knight (dps), Augmentation Evoker (dps), and Retribution Paladin (dps). Said comp is currently 40% of the meta and the ones that around 9% to 14% by comparison are just variations of the meta comp but they substitute the Frost DK. And that the reason protection paladin is the best tank right now for M+ is because apparently other tanks got nerfed. This is also evident from the data that Raider IO has in that there has been a sharp decline in player participation in just mythic plus dungeons done in general compared to previous expansions. Basically I am saying they turned what might've been midcore content into hardcore content.

Also yes, mage tower is better midcore content.

[Jamini]

It doesn't really matter what you want to call it or the players who do (or don't do) it: the consensus seems to be that it's simply not what players in aggregate have been asking for. IMO, the game really didn't need another single-boss fight that requires external study guides. We have a billion of those already. I would love to see them escape from Instance Simulator 2k25, although I understand why that's a Herculean task.

ETA: it's worth noting that my favorite pieces of content are, in fact, single-boss fights that require external study guides, and I'm still making the claim that Chaotic was not a good or needed addition to the game. I would love to have something else in the game to do that's fun, but that just doesn't exist right now.

The clear rates and reclear rates don't agree with that statement. Chaotic has significantly more involvement than Savage, and is edging several extremes.

Edit: And it released on Bloody Christmas.

[TemporalFruitsAndVeggies]

The clear rates and reclear rates don't agree with that statement. Chaotic has significantly more involvement than Savage, and is edging several extremes.

Edit: And it released on Bloody Christmas.

Yeah, but how does that translate to the entire active player base? How many people actually like the content, and how many people just did it because it's tied to exclusive rewards? How many people cleared and recleared it and also hated it? How many people will continue to do it after they've gotten their rewards from it, just because they enjoy doing it? We just don't have any actually useful metrics.

The Christmas argument definitely holds weight, at least in NA, but I'd argue a counter-argument of whatever that idiom about "giving a parched man in the desert a thimble of water" is would also hold weight -- of course people engaged with it; people are starved for something to do, so they're going to engage eagerly with whatever they're given.

I'm hard on this game, and I don't play it very much anymore (I only log in twice a week these days), but I'm hard on it because at one point it was just, like, the best online gaming experience available, hands-down. And it's been slowly straying away from that status for years now, and I want to see SE innovate and keep up and get it back to that state. It's just frustrating to see them trapped in a pattern they can't seem to design their way out of.

[Oizen]

Mechanically the difficulty is right, the design flaws that keep it from being midcore are:
-Its designed for lv730 despite saying 710
-A singular Tank Death is more often than not a wipe
-An (outside) healer death is more often than not a Wipe
-Shit patterns like Swap into Towers into Spread a triple back to back body check. I don't think the spread should double target if people are down, and I don't think the towers should be as lethal as they are

Hope they try this content again and take feedback into consideration rather than doing the minimum effort Criterion thing of releasing the same content with the exact same problems twice in a row

[AnotherPerson]

Imo, Chaotic raids is not midcore and people who want midcore content usually are referring to the early parts of midcore rather than the later parts because that's the content that feels sorely lacking in contrast for this expansion.

Midcore group is a mix of both casual and hardcore as far as commitment goes. Taking aspects of both (Bozja/Eureka Exploration, Critical Engagements in Bozja, Extremes). The former does not require much commitment and content can be done within a couple of attempts within the same run. The latter usually expects prog or a guide.

We already have extremes for late midcore gameplay, savage for hardcore, and chaotic to sit somewhere inbetween those two groups. We have an ultimate for the super hardcore gamers. Other than Jueno, the late casual/midcore content crowd has been feeling empty because they're the group who doesn't really want to do content with punishment and prog.

There's a lot more people who do midcore content on par with Critical Engagements try out Chaotic raids, but it led to a lot of toxicity all over in PF as a result. It's people with different set expectations and commitment trying out different content that's above their usual expectations and commitment.

[Jamini]

Yeah, but how does that translate to the entire active player base? How many people actually like the content, and how many people just did it because it's tied to exclusive rewards? How many people cleared and recleared it and also hated it? How many people will continue to do it after they've gotten their rewards from it, just because they enjoy doing it? We just don't have any actually useful metrics.

The Christmas argument definitely holds weight, at least in NA, but I'd argue a counter-argument of whatever that idiom about "giving a parched man in the desert a thimble of water" is would also hold weight -- of course people engaged with it; people are starved for something to do, so they're going to engage eagerly with whatever they're given.

I'm hard on this game, and I don't play it very much anymore (I only log in twice a week these days), but I'm hard on it because at one point it was just, like, the best online gaming experience available, hands-down. And it's been slowly straying away from that status for years now, and I want to see SE innovate and keep up and get it back to that state. It's just frustrating to see them trapped in a pattern they can't seem to design their way out of.

There are at least three major discords (one per strat) for chaotic in NA alone, as well as many smaller static discords. There are sufficient people who have over twenty clears who still form parties to farm demimateria.

Last I checked Chaotic had a higher clear AND reclear rate than Ex3.

I don't know what else to tell you. Perhaps the people who enjoy this fight are... I don't know ... playing the game?

[Mawlzy]

There are at least three major discords (one per strat) for chaotic in NA alone, as well as many smaller static discords. There are sufficient people who have over twenty clears who still form parties to farm demimateria.

Last I checked Chaotic had a higher clear AND reclear rate than Ex3.

I don't know what else to tell you. Perhaps the people who enjoy this fight are... I don't know ... playing the game?

Based on the moaning on Reddit there are plenty of people clearing and reclearing having an absolutely dreadful time. It doesn't make any sense to me either.

[CidHeiral]

FFXIV is missing fights where one experienced player can type out mechanics explanations in party chat in a few minutes and then within an hour you can clear the fight.

That is Extreme/Unreal Trials.

[ForteNightshade]

Extreme is not midcore. Full stop. I've run a largish community for casual players on Ravana and Kujata over the last few years and we've tackled all sorts of things, including extreme. So I've watched a lot of people encounter difficult content (me included, who is not particularly skilled). We've had our successes and failures. It takes a long time to learn extreme fights - not only do they demand a lot of skill (quite rightly), but it takes a looong time to fill learning parties. The joke goes that the savage part is organising 8 people to show up and do it. It takes a lot of commitment, and I respect that. But sitting in PF waiting for people to show up is a miserable way to spend an evening. Not to mention you can do everything right and still fail because of enrage. You really shouldn't have to execute perfect rotations and stress about parses for anything below hardcore stuff. Extreme is fine for what it is, but from my first hand experience it's too big a step up from the casual experience and it's not the middle ground between casual and savage/hardcore we need.

You say all this yet then posit that Chaotic is midcore when it's objectively harder than any Extreme released in the last six years.

[Lilapop]

Have we just considered that perhaps Chaotic is Midcore, and people arguing it's not might just be... Casual?

Seriously, CoD gives you a million years to react to her tells. The tiles last 45 seconds. Even deaths on tile phase are workable if you have people on the platforms that can rez. Part 1 & 3 are entirely personal responsibility (and even allow a friendly healer to fix your mistakes).

If you consider Chaotic hardcore, please reevaluate your own capabilities. It's an extreme trial, an easier one.

"i say its midcore, if its hard for u then ur a casual git good"

Or... difficulty is subjective to player and the developers itself say it's Savage? But, sure. You know better.