Maybe it's time for a casual "strike" if not complete departure.

[CVXIV]

this is a lot of effort for something you have no personal experience in
would SE benefit from providing content like deep dungeons / relics / exploratory zones in .1? sure, I'd personally be thrilled
but I don't see how you have any ground to stand on for a lot of the claims you make when you are several expansions away
dawntrail a scam? lmao

whether you like the story or not, it still provides the content that it has been doing for awhile
the issue is the frequency it comes out, not whether the developers cater to hardcore raiders or not

[Lilapop]

This is either some insane mental gymnastics or you're just trolling at this point.

Yet another case of "We disagree, therefore you are trolling/grasping at straws/insert other excuse here instead of acknowledging an opposing viewpoint"

[Colt47]

This conversation happens because live service games are designed by nature to take advantage of sunk cost to help keep it alive. Most games are more like small activities that don't really punish someone if they aren't in 24/7. Even with a savage reset every other patch being gone for an extended period sort of has this alienating effect, and even so much as taking a short break for a winter vacation can cause people drama. At the end of the day the crafting and gathering mini-game has grown stale and without any kind of casual environment to help broaden the market for items, there isn't much point to it either. Custom deliveries be damned, they just don't matter. Deep Dungeons are basically dead content without a discord, even the older stuff. Maybe shared fates if someone hasn't done them all but I don't blame someone for being lazy or just running out of steam for doing them.

Also, if they keep making more hardmode content they might as well make savage easier and turn it into EX level content so there is enough time in the day for most average players with jobs and 3-4 hours a night a chance here. The 24 man chaotic raid is sort of like being in a live action recreation of Billie Bustups a Thousand Ways to die since it snowballs so badly and it wouldn't be so bad if at least there was some signaling like with Bozja and needing the haste armor for Delibrum, but the intent was that this is their idea for mid-core. Honestly, mid-core is basically "do what alliance raids do with clear signaling, but make the mechanics deadlier", which is what pre nerf TG Cid was. This is still on the hardcore spectrum mostly because of the organizational requirements. They haven't had midcore content in a long time as it usually is something that is fun to do and doable in a night with some learning, but has a lot of attrition to it.

[Erzaa]

I'm not interested in being carried either though, I want to contribute or I wouldn't queue in the first place, the problem is that my contribution is lacking after a certain point in the game's difficulty-scaling and I'm not inclined to be a bother when I'm not sure I even can get better. If I'm getting body-checked on Mhach, things like Extreme/Savage/Ultimate/etc of any kind are completely out of the question, and in those modes people DO care.

I mean... I'm in a similar boat there. I died over 20 times my first time in CT, more during Void Ark and it went up every single alliance and even normal raids after. You'll learn the mechanics by repeating them, or looking up a guide (if that's your preferred way). Seriously, nobody cares what anyone else does in an AR, it shouldn't keep you from doing them.

AR's are very much meant as casual content, you just throw bodies at the boss until it eventually dies. Only way we don't get carried, is if we do it the first week, where everyone's dying. Stop worrying about the fact that you died, and worry more about what killed you. Over time, you'll notice mechanics begin to repeat and you'll get better at recognising what's probably coming.

As for EX/Savage/Ultimate, well I don't do those either. Lots of players skip them, but Normal Raids and Alliance Raids are good learning tools for later Normal Raids and Bozja and stuff like Deep Dungeons. All those very much do fall under casual content. Trust me, as a casual who's very much barely average at the game, they're all doable, just takes time and ignore the noise, don't even look at chat.

Based on my skill level and the content I've cleared? Yes, I'm apparently defined as a casual by FF14's presumed metrics.

So am I. That's not something to be ashamed of. Just play the content, if you like it, stick with it, if you don't, move onto something else you like doing more. Stop worrying about what some random person you're never going to see again thinks.

[Jamini]

I wonder if both things can't be true.

Maybe some of these folks demonizing raiders got reasonable advice at some point in their lives like "please pull wall to wall," "stop using cure 1," or "please don't stand in the telegraphed AoE" and told themselves that raiders are toxic elitists that demand perfection.

Have you seen the general population in PF lately? You can avoid basically all negative interactions by not being the worst player in the group, which is, in practice, a very low bar to get over. The vast, vast, vast majority of player-to-player interactions in raiding are exchanges of silence after a lockout of wiping, then going about separate ways. Nobody judges or cares--nobody says anything at all in fact, except in the most extreme circumstances.

This gets even funnier when I look back to a discussion I had qith my mates tonight in Discord (i e. Not subject to any risk of ban for toxicity.)

M3S - We have a bard who is having trouble with Fuse field. A mechanic halfway through where everyone triggers and AoE in order to avoid blowing up the party.

(White Mage): Kick him. The bard.
(Dragoon): What?
(White Mage): Kick him. The bard.
(Paladin): What, why? We can clear this.
(White Mage): This isn't prog.
(White Mage Leaves)
(Paladin): I don't get what the deal is, but ok. We'll see [White Mage.] Tomorrow I guess.
(Me, Scholar): Everyone has a bad night. I'm too tired to cate.
(Reaper and Bard not in our Discord, leave of their own accord)
(Dragoon): I wasn't even going to kick them? Ok...
(Paladin): They left on their own anyway.
(Me, Scholar): Probably were embarrassed. Nothing we can do about it.
(PF goes back up and we fill and reclear normally)

Even in private, unmoderated channels a lot of raiding groups are like that. You have a small handful of very vocal/selfish people, and a majority who don't really care or want to help. Nothing at all was even said in chat, except asking the Bard if they knew the otder for the mechanic.

It's really hilarious when you see such vitriolic hate from people eho don't raid when easily the vast majority of raiders are not only quite nice, but in my experience very willing to help others who make an effort to learn and improve.

[Volgia]

I suppose you could say that it was on me for blindly buying the newest expansion (pre-ordered no less!) when I hadn't even finished the "full game" up to that point yet, but then you'd be agreeing with me that Dawntrail wasn't worth the purchase and I would have been better off waiting until mid-2025 at the earliest, or how even if I rushed (or skipped) the MSQ from now until April, I would just be running out of content faster, not unlocking more.

But... you're not out of Stormblood... like, this is an insane thread to post for someone who isn't even halfway through the content. You're missing the Ivallice 24 man, all of Eureka, ALL of Shadowbringers , ALL of Endwalker and ALL of Dawntrail.

By the time you reach Dawntrail and 7.5 you're going to get all the casual content they've released.

[ZXN]

If you're unhappy with the current state of FF14, then you should consider unsubbing for awhile.

I'm not saying this like some others are because "haha fuck the casuals FF14 would be better without you!" , and I am not saying it because "Well Yoshi-P said if you don't like it you're free to leave lmao" and are attempting to invalidate any genuine concerns/criticisms players have. I am saying it because there are a lot of people, in many threads and posts, that are just genuinely unhappy playing currently, but are still forcing themselves to continue playing. While you can definitely blame the devs for the current state of things, you cannot blame the devs for you willingly continuing to force yourself to continue paying your sub and playing the game if you're not having any fun with it.

Endwalker had many players going "This expansion is shit, the story sucked, there is nothing that interests me, job balance is dogshit, everything is way too easy and blah blah blah...so I'm going to stop playing!"...only to then keep themselves subscribed the entire expansion, even if they only used 2-3 days of their whole 30 day sub-time actually playing each time, because they came up with reason after reason that convinced them that that HAD to keep playing. Now Dawntrail is doing the same, just with similar/different "prompts" this time, and it's only been one patch.

The "It'll get better next patch!" or "It'll get better next expansion!" mindset is absolutely not a road FF14 should be going down. This "It'll get better next X" mindset is the same mindset WOW players have had and dealt with for literal YEARS, and it made many of their players fucking miserable, and reminder: many FF14 players mocked and made fun of WOW players for it. What if things don't get better next patch? Hell, what if things don't really get better for the rest of Dawntrail? Given how things are, just right this moment with current patch/content: Are you confident enough in the devs to tell yourself and potentially friends "Dawntrail is going to be worth staying for!" and keep yourselves subscribed until the next patch, or even subscribed 16+ months until 8.0 launch, under the hope that it just will get better? Last thing this game needs right now is to start pushing players down that same path of going "Well, it'll get better in the future" and then have them force themselves to keep playing a game they clearly are not enjoying.

I'm definitely not trying to be mean or make players possibly feel stupid or bad for continuing to play FF14, and I am definitely not telling players to quit outright, but I feel players should be genuinely asking themselves "Is FF14 currently in a state where I can continue enjoying myself and is worth subbing for?" but won't because...well, for some: they won't like the answer they came up with.

[CidHeiral]

This isn't about being "too tired" or "too far" it's that I'm not wanted there in the first place, and it won't be just one person making a rude comment if I insist otherwise and try anyway.

Alright well I tried my best but you're clearly dead set on living in this fantasy world you've concocted for yourself. I hope you're able to find fun with the game eventually whatever path you choose to take.

[CaedemSanguis]

Assuming that "Hardcore" players are eating good is also wrong.

So, first and foremost, I want to say that savage isn't designed for the hardcore player. It's designed for players that want to challenge themself. That said, beyond the first clear of it, that challenge quickly goes away and it becomes a farm. The mechanics are predictable enough that there is no real challenge beyond the first clear. Some people who are casual will still clear because they put in a few hours a week to go in and prog. This isn't hardcore, it's just hard content.

I also want to address that "hardcore" players in general are still feeling the lack of content. 7.1 was the first real update we had in nearly 4 months and the only piece of content it brought us was one duty. Not to be dismissive of the "casual" players just getting MSQ, a beast tribe that takes 5 mins a day, and custom delivers that take 5 mins a week. But most of us don't sit around and raid all day. Many raiders either do or want to do other content and throwing yourself at a duty over and over for weeks on end waiting for 7.2 in 3 months is not going to keep raiders entertained.

There is a serious lack of midcore content right now and it effects nearly everyone except the two extreme groups - those who RP all day who are content no matter what and those who raid all day regardless of how repetitive it is. The state dawntrail is in is abhorrent for nearly everyone.

I dont really agree

7 ex
12 savage turns
3 criterions
3 chaotic raid ?
2 ultimates
1 deep dungeon

I think raiders have "enough content", I'll still unsub for 12-15 months but I think it's still a good amount of content to do (even if I would prefer 5 turns for each savage tier and 3 ultimates)

[Capstone]

I dont really agree

7 ex
12 savage turns
3 criterions
3 chaotic raid ?
2 ultimates
1 deep dungeon

I think raiders have "enough content", I'll still unsub for 12-15 months but I think it's still a good amount of content to do (even if I would prefer 5 turns for each savage tier and 3 ultimates)

Raid content and hardcore content are not the same thing.
The only "hardcore" content listed here were the ultimates. Savage has been midcore for a while, and the rest is self-explanatory.