Maybe it's time for a casual "strike" if not complete departure.

[Collin_Sky]

I felt my previous responses had explained the situation adequately, but apparently not, so allow me to try again.

First, let's rule out individuals with diagnosable physical and neurological conditions that prevent them from playing combat well. Keep this simple.

Your assertion is that everyone playing FF14, when given the required information, can clear Savage. I think to be fair we must also stipulate that this "clear" involves them not being carried. Okay so far?

For this to be true, Savage content must require an intrinsic level of skill that is below the minimum achievable skill level of all players in 14.

Skill is not some binary, in which absent of disabilities you can do all content in FF14. It's a spectrum. No matter how much information you give people, and how much they practice, each individual will eventually reach a skill cap. Even you Volgia!

Let me try this from the opposite direction. Think of a mechanic you find difficult to handle. Now imagine that the cast time is shorter, or the speed of the attack is faster, or the number of pixels you can safely stand on is reduced. Can you now resolve this mechanic? Can you resolve it if these parameters are made increasingly more difficult?

It seems that because all it takes for you to resolve savage mechanics is information (which in your case I assume is obtained through progging), that you have concluded everyone else can do it too, if only they would try.

This is completely false. You're really good at this. Possibly abnormally so. Most people are not at your level, nor can they achieve it. This is no more controversial than noting that different individuals will have an intrinsic limit on how rapidly they can unscramble a Rubik's cube.

Now I would accept that some people who currently do not attempt Savage could do so successfully if they put in the effort, but this idea that the bulk of the playerbase is not attempting Savage because they are lazy is frankly offensive. Not only is it beyond their current ability, it is beyond their achievable ability.

All of this can be overcome with practice - every single part of it. I’m currently on 600 pulls of FRU, and my group is likely to clear within the next one or two raid sessions. What do you think all those pulls were? We didn’t just watch guides and immediately jump into clear attempts. We had to practice the mechanics, learn the timings, and understand the nuances of the moment to moment decisions required for each mechanic.

Your intrinsic ability improves as you practice. Unless you’re some kind of savant, everyone needs to put in the effort to improve their skills. That’s how progress works.

The fact that you fail to recognize this is, frankly, sad. It suggests that you see no hope for improvement in yourself and, worse, no reason to even try.

[CidHeiral]

No because the argument, the implication, is always that "this content is good enough for me so it IS good enough for you too." The impression is always "if you just tried it you will find you like it like I do. It is the 'minor' matter of 'attitide' that is you blocking you. So now we've concluded that you are being pathetic by not making use of hardcore, we can move on to ignore your requests"

I am mystified at how you could get that from my post but no, that wasn't what I was saying at all. The point was that you can make it happen if you genuinely want to try. If you don't want to, that's fine too, but that's on you and nobody else. There is no league of evil hardcore players keeping you down as some keep trying to argue in here.

Here is an idea, remove the 'completed' plag from PF. Force people if they want to filter for completed players to use the DF/RaidFinder. Too bad you will have to communicate your strategy in their. Too bad you'll have to spend longer learning more strats before you can start arming. These are all things the devs can easily compensate for, if high end are "hardworking" and "willing" as they claim. But while we don't want to join PFs they probably don't 'enjoy' doing anythin unless its the MIN/MAX optimised strategy.

The Duty Complete tag is there for farm parties. Farm parties are not for learning. There are learning parties all the time that you can join if you want to learn a fight. If you find the requirements of those learning parties unreasonable you can make your own with whatever requirements that you're comfortable with. Nobody is "MIN/MAXXING" anything outside of parse groups which are always clearly marked as such.

They don't enjoy helping, they don't enjoy compromising, they are not there for the social, they are there for thier mount and thats it.

This is no different than people coming in here and saying all casual players are lazy and stupid. It's an absurd caricature that doesn't support your point at all, it just makes you look childish.

[Mawlzy]

If this is such a big issue, why haven't this been adressed so much sooner in any other MMO when it comes to raiding?
It is content meant to be difficult and designed that not everyone might be able to do it, that it requires practice and dedication.
It's a shame that individuals with possible handicap/disabilities falls within that category "automatically". But if everything in a game would cater at such a low skill roof then there would be nothing to challenge players besides those individuals.
And maybe if people wants to be able to do exactly everything then maybe FFXIV (and other games that do require such) might not be the right game for them.
There are other games that are by design have easier/simpler skill roofs. There's no reason to demand a game with a certain design to change because "it's not fair".

Yes exactly. It is designed such that not everyone can do it. Such content absolutely belongs in FF14 to provide highly-skilled players with a challenge. I'm simply pointing out that the reason some people cannot do it is because they lack the skill, not the effort.

[CidHeiral]

I'm simply pointing out that the reason some people cannot do it is because they lack the skill, not the effort.

Skill is something you cultivate over time with effort and practice.

[miraidensetsu]

I was thinking about how someone with a Ping < 50ms would say that someone with 200+ ping can solve all mechanics with just effort.

Even now we have that phenomenon where game shows your character out of bad, but he yet is computed as failed. Yet character gets dmg down debuff, yet gets damaged. Reflex-based mechanics is straight up impossible for such ping.

On top of that, there are hardcore raiders. Judging you by your damage collected by some forbidden tool. Whose "help" is "go k**l yourself d**b**s s**t". Whose encouragement is "uninstall this game already".

And it's not like someone can choose not to play with them. Party finder is full of hardcore raiders that expects perfect performance from anyone who joins his group.

And they yet have courage to come to the forums to accuse casuals to be toxic after saying things like "WHM is a waste of party slot".

[Evergrey]

I was thinking about how someone with a Ping < 50ms would say that someone with 200+ ping can solve all mechanics with just effort.

Even now we have that phenomenon where game shows your character out of bad, but he yet is computed as failed. Yet character gets dmg down debuff, yet gets damaged. Reflex-based mechanics is straight up impossible for such ping.

On top of that, there are hardcore raiders. Judging you by your damage collected by some forbidden tool. Whose "help" is "go k**l yourself d**b**s s**t". Whose encouragement is "uninstall this game already".

And it's not like someone can choose not to play with them. Party finder is full of hardcore raiders that expects perfect performance from anyone who joins his group.

And they yet have courage to come to the forums to accuse casuals to be toxic after saying things like "WHM is a waste of party slot".

Ah, the good old ARR 2.x and the Titan HM with 200+ ping.
Those were the days and yes, a lot of people got hit by the landslides over and over thanks to that.
Still, not impossible but you really had to be quick to move.
Sadly ping isn't something that can always be accounted for when designing fights.
But from the Savage raids I took part in most big AoE's took so long to actually execute that even with 200+ ping people probably have plenty of time to get out of them.
Seeing how Titans landslides hit faster than what those did.

One might not always be able to completely avoid hardcore raiders that seek "perfect" performance from others.
But people can always choose not to play with them.
No one's forcing anyone to stay in a group once they can tell if they are such hardcore players.
And if people join practice groups the chances to meet such players is reduced.
During all my months savage raiding I never met such an individual or group.
And I spent every day for weeks, months doing PF groups.
(I really think that FFXIV players have created their own Boogieman regarding Hardcore players.)

What I can tell from personal experience is that people get upset if someone joins a group they clearly isn't "ready" for.
Like if someone joins a "second part practice" group and they haven't even practiced the first part enough so that they can clear it on a regular basis yet.
That will obviously tilt others in the group since that person is holding the progress of the group back.
Ofc, people don't have to get upset and hostile when it happens. But the person who isn't ready for that part yet should also be considerate and not join a group they aren't ready for yet.

[Barwara]

I’d really like to unsub to prove a point but I have a house I’d like to keep…

[Lilapop]

Starting to miss when raids were more than "watch guide, follow guide, if u cant follow guide quit the game lmao"

[Evergrey]

Starting to miss when raids were more than "watch guide, follow guide, if u cant follow guide quit the game lmao"

Mm.. Sadly that has become the norm in pretty much any Online game.
There are guides to anything and everything.
Heck, even single player games get guides on how to do stuff.
Although it's easier to ignore guides for single player games since there won't be people asking you to watch one before partaking in something.

The time for exploring has long passed.
There's really no wonder why more and more MMO's becomes more and more Solo-friendly with its content.
Some people want/need to be able to play in their own pace and not feel the pressure to perform at a certain level.
Especially when it comes to content that by design should be able to be cleared at a relative slow and simple pace.

However there are those people that do engage in Savage raids without guides.
They put up PF groups mentioning how they are doing "Blind runs".
So there are people who still enjoy learning by doing without watching guides.
Although they are fewer in numbers compared to "everyone else".

[Collin_Sky]

And it's not like someone can choose not to play with them. Party finder is full of hardcore raiders that expects perfect performance from anyone who joins his group.

You literally can, though. Party finder is not your only way of playing with people.
Make friends, join discords where the purpose is recruitment, find like-minded individuals to accomplish a shared goal. These are basic social skills.