Why do casual players seem entitled to cosmetic items added in game?

[Supersnow845]

I definitely don't know what MMO stands for, you're right. I always just assumed it was games for Moms, just spelled wrong, but thanks to your post I've learned that was incorrect!

I mean, I think. You didn't really clarify.

But I do think there are at least a couple of steps in your analogy you're missing to make that an equivalent example.

For example: does this pizza place also make you share 7 slices of your 8 slice pizza with 7 random strangers who react angrily to you "doing it wrong" before taking a vote to kick you out of the place?

Does the pizza parlor require that I wear 8 seperate pieces of clothing and accessories of a minimum quality before I can step inside?

If I approach the pizza parlor with my wife for a date, will it tell me that I can eat the pizza alone OR with 7 strangers, but not JUST with my wife?

I think a pizza parlor set up to follow MMO requirements would probably only have a 1-star rating on Yelp, that's for sure.

...

...what were we talking about, again..?

Right. Yeah. So - yes. I think that encouraging the introduction of quality-of-life features is more important than going with "it's always been this way before." Bear in mind that I'll be prepared to accept that this is your genuine stance ONLY if you're still angrily holding a candle for 1.0's "anima" system, where you couldn't really play the game meaningfully any more once you ran out.

Which, if so - I mean, way to hold to your convictions, my friend!

But I'd like to think that maybe you can agree that some things that are "staples of the genre" can actually be bad, or un-fun, and - if not outright removed - alternatives can be offered for people who won't otherwise interact with those systems in their current forms anyway.

None of those analogies make any sense because the analogy to MMO is pizza itself. When you signed up for an MMO you agreed that you were happy to play with other people to progress and that depending on the situation others may not be happy with your performance, that’s literally the core of an MMO. In your analogies you act like you didn’t sign up for any of this when you signed up for an MMO “I didn’t sign up to eat pizza with 7 strangers I signed up to eat pizza” yes the pizza is the MMO so by proxy you signed up to play with strangers on a game. If you don’t want to play with strangers why did you pick an MMO, second life sims and co-op games exist if you just wanted to play with your wife

Removing the corest of core elements of an MMO (playing with other people) isn’t a “quality of life feature” it’s removing the entire purpose of the game. If you want to play with your wife then queue together and have the other 6 spots fill around you, this isn’t a solo game

[Mawlzy]

Removing the corest of core elements of an MMO (playing with other people) isn’t a “quality of life feature” it’s removing the entire purpose of the game. If you want to play with your wife then queue together and have the other 6 spots fill around you, this isn’t a solo game

What? Every non-combat single quest, MSQ or otherwise is carried out solo. With a handful of exceptions, every piece of MSQ combat content can be carried out solo.

If you really believe that "solo play in a world of other players" will destroy 14, sorry to tell you, but that's already happened.

To your point below:

isn’t it funny that every time something actually important happens they make it into a dungeon/trial/raid

Saying “the busywork is solo” is not the gotcha you imagine it to be. Literally every important or critical moment in this game is done in a party

This is simply not true. Most of the significant events appear in cut scenes. When there are raids/dungeons/trials associated with those events, 98% can be carried out with NPCs; that is, solo.

[Supersnow845]

What? Every non-combat single quest, MSQ or otherwise is carried out solo. With a handful of exceptions, every piece of MSQ combat content can be carried out solo.

If you really believe that "solo play in a world of other players" will destroy 14, sorry to tell you, but that's already happened.

isn’t it funny that every time something actually important happens they make it into a dungeon/trial/raid

Saying “the busywork is solo” is not the gotcha you imagine it to be. Literally every important or critical moment in this game is done in a party

[Tyintheron]

None of those analogies make any sense because the analogy to MMO is pizza itself. When you signed up for an MMO you agreed that you were happy to play with other people to progress and that depending on the situation others may not be happy with your performance, that’s literally the core of an MMO. In your analogies you act like you didn’t sign up for any of this when you signed up for an MMO “I didn’t sign up to eat pizza with 7 strangers I signed up to eat pizza” yes the pizza is the MMO so by proxy you signed up to play with strangers on a game. If you don’t want to play with strangers why did you pick an MMO, second life sims and co-op games exist if you just wanted to play with your wife

Removing the corest of core elements of an MMO (playing with other people) isn’t a “quality of life feature” it’s removing the entire purpose of the game. If you want to play with your wife then queue together and have the other 6 spots fill around you, this isn’t a solo game

I don't believe I got whatever form it is you're talking about. Did I have to mail it in?

They've added a bunch of quality of life features since it started. So where do you draw the line? You didn't respond to the anima thing, so I assume you were fine with that, right? How about the glamour system? Is that okay? People used to (and still) complain that it doesn't let you "see" someone else's current level of gear/raid progression. How about Ishgardian restoration for getting your crafters up?

Where's the limit for you, personally?

Because what I keep finding is that quality of life changes are great until they might have an effect on something you, personally, like to do.

"Thank goodness we have glamour!" "Yeah, it's nice to look how I want!" "Those mounts are account wide, too!" "Thank goodness! Now I don't have to farm on every alt!" "Now we can try to get them to make raiding more accessible to solo players or smaller groups!" "NO DON'T TOUCH MY STAPLES OF THE GENRE"

My whole point was that one of the core parts of MMOs is that they evolve, and it tends to be for the better when it comes to quality of life. If you're clinging to "BUT MULTIPLAYER IN ALL THINGS" I unfortunately have some bad news about a whole lot of features that are already in the game. And if your point is "I really, REALLY take issue with that guy wanting to play this game ONLY with his wife because it goes against that middle M in MMO and I shall defend that M with my life" then... okay, I guess..?

I just disagree that anything design-wise should be "sacred" if it could be made more fun for more people.

[TaleraRistain]

Removing the corest of core elements of an MMO (playing with other people) isn’t a “quality of life feature” it’s removing the entire purpose of the game. If you want to play with your wife then queue together and have the other 6 spots fill around you, this isn’t a solo game

Those "core elements" changed over the past 25 years. When I played EverQuest, we all did the same things, leveled the same places, pursued the same items, because that was all there was to do and there was very little choice except to do it with other people.

The trend over the past 25 years is not focusing on a solo experience, but making a solo experience an option and putting the choice to interact more into player hands. The genre did not become more widespread until entries like WoW and EQII started putting out the carrot to entice players to join the multiplayer content, rather than forcing them into no other option.

[Ardeth]

Those "core elements" changed over the past 25 years. When I played EverQuest, we all did the same things, leveled the same places, pursued the same items, because that was all there was to do and there was very little choice except to do it with other people.

The trend over the past 25 years is not focusing on a solo experience, but making a solo experience an option and putting the choice to interact more into player hands. The genre did not become more widespread until entries like WoW and EQII started putting out the carrot to entice players to join the multiplayer content, rather than forcing them into no other option.

Exactly! That merit of those old games speaks volumes, especially with how games have become. Even your single-player games have the very same issue of the player looking up what are the best items and only caring about the reward instead of the content. I never thought about beating a game like Mario. I just played it. And if a friend came over, I handed them a controller.

Anymore in games, all we do is seek to label and place people. There's an irony I used to tell people about how when I was younger, I was into anime, games, and comics. And back then, when you met someone else who did, you instantly became friends with them because of that comradery. You knew they knew what it was like to be different. To be treated like a loser and geek. And now, in almost every fandom, it's all about gatekeeping and ostrisizing people to keep them out of your cool kids club.

To kind of bring it back to the mmo genre

We have an issue in all games, not just mmos of putting people in groups instead of making content that everyone can enjoy. I don't think forcing one type of content is the awnser, but I also can't really think of a solution that doesn't alienate someone else.

I want to raid and do savage and ultimates, but you have to be realistic. It's too hard because they tuned it to what that fringe playerbase wanted. So even if I want to tighten my bootstraps to do it, I'm going to end up climbing Everest. And of course, that's going to frustrate me and make me quit. Because it never took into account that I'm the level 0 person. It never took the time to ease me up. It just offered me level 10 content and players gatekeeping me and wondered why I couldn't do it. And why I refused to try.

To me, that's the bigger gripe about the reward being on top of Everest and the developers knowingly doing it than the reward itself. Also, the gatekeeping. Which to some extent I get. Time is our most valuable resource. So wasting it isn't ideal. This is why most casual players ignore high-end content. It feels like a waste of time because of all the brick walls of things you need to know that the game itself doesn't teach nor prepare you for.

[Evergrey]

It never took the time to ease me up..

This right here has me thinking, isn't this kind of a players choice?
FFXIV has had harder content for many years and you just chose not to do them.

In Endwalker there was a time when I felt bored and had "nothing to do". So I thought to myself, "maybe I should give Savage a try when it comes. See how far I can go while also giving me something to do/a goal."
And so I did and I finished 5 of the Endwalker savage raids. at least 4 of them I cleared using PF.
This was my first time trying Savage in FFXIV. Before that EX trials had been my highest content. And I haven't even done all of them.

Point is, sometimes the players have to choose to do something even if the game haven't "ease'd you up".
Nothing's holding players back than their own excuses why they don't do something.

[Ardeth]

This right here has me thinking, isn't this kind of a players choice?
FFXIV has had harder content for many years and you just chose not to do them.

In Endwalker there was a time when I felt bored and had "nothing to do". So I thought to myself, "maybe I should give Savage a try when it comes. See how far I can go while also giving me something to do/a goal."
And so I did and I finished 5 of the Endwalker savage raids. at least 4 of them I cleared using PF.
This was my first time trying Savage in FFXIV. Before that EX trials had been my highest content. And I haven't even done all of them.

Point is, sometimes the players have to choose to do something even if the game haven't "ease'd you up".
Nothing's holding players back than their own excuses why they don't do something.

Of course, but it also isn't something other players roll out red carpets for either.

Look, I'm not making excuses for me. I'm lazy. I want content I can jump into that feels rewarding. It doesn't have to always be gear, and it doesn't always have to be hard.

For years, I was told souls like games blah blah blah. I had played a few, and they were annoyingly hard. No matter what I tried, I couldn't get into them. Then I played Elden Ring and I really enjoyed it. I beat it several times. With that confidence boost, I tried Sekiro. I hated it.

I'm just saying that making something difficult doesn't automatically make it fun. Coupled with natural gatekeeping doesn't help either. Sure, I could make a party finder group and practice and watch videos, but you're forgetting I'm lazy. I take full responsibility for the parts of it that are my fault. I just want a fair share of content that isn't indefinitely locked out for me one way or another. Extremes and Savages don't bother me since I can do them later, easier. whereas Ultimates are dead to me as a player because I can't.

I just want to have something to do and be rewarded in kind. Currently, there is nothing to do but challenging content. And I don't want that. I couldn't care less about a hairstyle. That is the issue.

[Evergrey]

Of course, but it also isn't something other players roll out red carpets for either.

Look, I'm not making excuses for me. I'm lazy. I want content I can jump into that feels rewarding. It doesn't have to always be gear, and it doesn't always have to be hard.

For years, I was told souls like games blah blah blah. I had played a few, and they were annoyingly hard. No matter what I tried, I couldn't get into them. Then I played Elden Ring and I really enjoyed it. I beat it several times. With that confidence boost, I tried Sekiro. I hated it.

I'm just saying that making something difficult doesn't automatically make it fun. Coupled with natural gatekeeping doesn't help either. Sure, I could make a party finder group and practice and watch videos, but you're forgetting I'm lazy. I take full responsibility for the parts of it that are my fault. I just want a fair share of content that isn't indefinitely locked out for me one way or another. Extremes and Savages don't bother me since I can do them later, easier. whereas Ultimates are dead to me as a player because I can't.

I just want to have something to do and be rewarded in kind. Currently, there is nothing to do but challenging content. And I don't want that. I couldn't care less about a hairstyle. That is the issue.

All fair points and I agree on them.
I do like your example on how you enjoyed Elden Ring but not Sekiro. Both are the same genre of games but vastly different regardless on your personal enjoyment.
So just because one likes a thing doesn't automatically make it so everything else that falls within the same category do as well.

[Ardeth]

All fair points and I agree on them.
I do like your example on how you enjoyed Elden Ring but not Sekiro. Both are the same genre of games but vastly different regardless on your personal enjoyment.
So just because one likes a thing doesn't automatically make it so everything else that falls within the same category do as well.

I appreciate it.

I'm still salty about Sekiro. I bought it on sale on Steam after hearing how great it was, and I'm at the second boss, and I'm just drained. It's so punishing and not fun.

Not to derail the topic.

I just think there are better systems and better ways to get people engaged to harder levels of content without putting the carrot on the stick. Since if they can't, they resent you, and if they crash and burn on the attempt, they hate you more. It's catering to that 1% of casuals who can swim with the current while the other 99% afk in Limsa.

At least you can buy it. That's about the only praise I can give the decision honestly.