Let us use phoenix downs in combat, give healers more damage buttons, and a bit else

[Rebeccubus]

The reason I think that they changed it from Stormblood was actually because I don't think it was intentional for healers to have all these attacks.

Honestly? You do make good points, and its very possible they never intended for healers to have so many damage buttons. This argument may be flawed due to stuff like cleric stance however, because that was flat out just a damage stance for healers to manage, not even something they got from a DPS class via shared actions.

That said, at this point I feel like the easiest and best fix to implement would be giving healers back some of those damage buttons. FFXIV is just designed as a game where theres loads of time for damage dealing and aside from really hard fights, healing is often quite slow and predictable. There would be a LOT more work on fixing fights to be more engaging for healers because so much content was designed around them having more damage buttons so they have something to do when they weren't healing. Even newer content struggles with this when the damage is just not high enough for healers to be engaged. Adding some extra damage stuff to do would make it more engaging. It would be like if tanks only had a 123 combo and the rest of the bar was mit. It would be boring af because aside from wall to wall pulls and hardcore content, theyd have nothing to do but that 123.

[Rebeccubus]

Maybe the increase in the amount of jobs over the years has diluted how often you see Red Mages or Summoners

Honestly I think this is a good argument for WHY we should diversify the ressing role a bit. RDM and SMN having raises has been a design trap for them in balance, and as you say they will be around less for emergency resses as more classes get added, putting more pressure on healers. It is probably an issue showing itself more as time goes on.

Well that is Savage. I wasn't referring to Savage.

Sorry, to be clear I was agreeing with you and just adding on that the issue ALSO presents itself with the opposite problem in harder fight designs. You were correct.

While I agree, the truth is there are people playing the game purely for the story or for social reasons and are completely hopeless at games

I also understand this as a goal and is why I really like trusts. Letting new players go at their own pace is great. Though it is hard because you cant design the game for everyone at once of course. I think that what we got in DT is a good level of difficulty for most casual content. That WILL alienate some players that can't match the required skill, but that's true of the majority of games. If anything I'd want the devs to invest in better designs to help give players opportunities to improve (like trusts and hall of the novice). I also feel that diversifying the raises via phoenix downs will actually HELP those that are hopeless at the game. Currently, unless a healer invites friends or uses pf, they have to get LUCKY with a SMN/RDM joining their group, which will be rarer with time as you say. If they get unlucky then the full pressure is on to be perfect. Making it so everyone has access to even a really weak res would help those players as it'd be easier for others to carry them.

I feel like people really did ask for this

What i remember is healers saying "We are bored and have too many heal buttons that we don't need. Ideally we want the damage buttons back, but you seem insistent on giving us all these heal buttons so can you at least make us need them?" and then thats when we got the Abyssos fight design. Thats what i remember, anyway.

The raidwide back-to-back thing though has always been in Savage really

Yeah it has been, as has the instakill body-check mechanics. But they got more prevalent and more aggressive about them as a reactionary measure to complaints, from my observation.

[Kohashi]

The only instance where Phoenix down would make mechanical/ design sense is if SE removed the holy trinity. (I think pigs would sooner fly)

Blade and Soul has that mechanic but also no class/spec is a healer. If SE would scrap the holy trinity, the combat might actually start to be decent and engaging compared to what we have now.

[Jeeqbit]

This argument may be flawed due to stuff like cleric stance however, because that was flat out just a damage stance for healers to manage, not even something they got from a DPS class via shared actions.

That was primarily a Conjurer action (and yes it was cross-class, but that system was unmaintained and an afterthought). So if we assume Cleric Stance was intended for White Mages, they didn't originally have the additional AoE DoT they got in Stormblood, which is when they effectively removed Cleric Stance (because that stance became a tiny damage buff).

It still doesn't really change that they had no upgrade system to say "don't use this older version of the same action", even where it seemed logical. I don't think the developers even knew if they were meant to be upgrades - they just threw a load of mud at the wall in ARR to see what stuck. A lot of ideas they dreamed up when designing it didn't happen in reality, and at this point in the game they know what won't work.

[Valence]

The only instance where Phoenix down would make mechanical/ design sense is if SE removed the holy trinity. (I think pigs would sooner fly)

Blade and Soul has that mechanic but also no class/spec is a healer. If SE would scrap the holy trinity, the combat might actually start to be decent and engaging compared to what we have now.

I really don't see how. You'd be left with only damage output as a metric beyond healing that would essentially vanish.
If we want something engaging we have to start introducing back a lot of different metrics and variables to the whole system, else it's gonna stay one dimensional.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

The only instance where Phoenix down would make mechanical/ design sense is if SE removed the holy trinity. (I think pigs would sooner fly)

Blade and Soul has that mechanic but also no class/spec is a healer. If SE would scrap the holy trinity, the combat might actually start to be decent and engaging compared to what we have now.

GW2 did that, and had to add the trinity back for raids because bosses wouldn’t really be programmed to do anything crazy. And any hits had to be survivable by every class.

[Rebeccubus]

That was primarily a Conjurer action (and yes it was cross-class, but that system was unmaintained and an afterthought). So if we assume Cleric Stance was intended for White Mages, they didn't originally have the additional AoE DoT they got in Stormblood, which is when they effectively removed Cleric Stance (because that stance became a tiny damage buff).

It still doesn't really change that they had no upgrade system to say "don't use this older version of the same action", even where it seemed logical. I don't think the developers even knew if they were meant to be upgrades - they just threw a load of mud at the wall in ARR to see what stuck. A lot of ideas they dreamed up when designing it didn't happen in reality, and at this point in the game they know what won't work.

Honestly fair

Going forward I think I'd like to see healers given interesting damage rotations that ARENT just "here is more dots to track". They need to feel impactful like theres decision making (The scholars Ive had in my raid group talk about energy drain as really nice for this because it gives them something to think about as far as spending resources on damage or healing) but it doesnt necessarily need to lead to button bloat or an overwhelming kit. I actually really like some of the ideas they put into DT. WHM getting those instant casts and AST/SCH getting a fancy new button for burst feels good. I'd like to see those sorts of ideas expanded upon. I also think WHM lilies are incredibly smart design once you unlock the blood lily because it ties their healing and damage together in a way that feels very natural. I want more stuff like those, not just like 3 extra dots to track.

[Vintersol]

Idk, it's good as it is. Everytime i see player wanted improvements, the game went downhill.

[Rebeccubus]

Idk, it's good as it is. Everytime i see player wanted improvements, the game went downhill.

Certainly fair, I am just another person with another idea that could be horrible in practice. I just wanted to get the idea out there for it to be considered by players and ideally eventually the devs. This is not the only solution, I just think its a good one to get them out of some of the traps they've put themselves in (i am obviously biased since it's my idea. That said, I want to explain WHY I think its good and want others to engage with that). Even if they don't implement this in particular, considering it could give them NEW ideas that may be even better than I imagined.

In the end I just want them to do SOMETHING because the current systems are clearly flawed in ways that will only get worse if the devs attempt to continue as they are. I think as the game has evolved it's become clear that more core systems need updates to modernize them (as they have done) but I disagree with many of the solutions they came up with.

[Valence]

Idk, it's good as it is. Everytime i see player wanted improvements, the game went downhill.

There is definitely requests for both "introduce more depth" improvements, and "i can't be arsed to deal with this, bring in the sandpaper" improvements.